I'm amazed

[David McClelland]

I ripped the ass out of 2 different pairs of jeans that fit quite loose just a month ago

LMAO that is exactly what I'm afraid is going to rip on mine and my luck it will be! And it'll be at the wrong time too! Definitely not a complaint though, as I'm sure you agree. Gee my muscles are busting out my clothes I have it so bad! lol

[Dalton Clark]

I mean I get why people don't want to do this. Not only is it hard, but it doesn't do much to their immediate concern which is typically just looks.

People don't really care about the number they put on the bar. What makes most of us want to do this type of program is that we DO value strength. We don't just want to look strong, we want to be strong. Most of the novice gains are neurological gains. In other words, minimal muscle tone changes (unless you were on the high or low extreme of weight). Unless you personally like going to the gym, it's hard enough going when you are reaching your goal. But imagine going for a few months, lifting heavy ass shit and not looking any better. A skinny fat novice won't start having a good looking body till solidly in intermediate phase. After he completes his novice LP, then trains some more, then loses the extra fluff. A similar looking body could have been reached in the same time or less, with an easier plan that is less strength focuses (The hard and not as good feeling workouts). Thats why you see bros with big bodies and abs, but they have never squatted or deadlifted in their life. But they look like they actually lift, while many of us look like we haven't seen a weight in our lives when in a sweater.

Several interesting comments. The first being that the majority of the novice gains are neurological gains. This has been shown to be demonstratively false under proper diet and a well-run novice progression. It is almost impossible to run the novice progression properly without adding a substantial amount of muscle mass - assuming the individual is of low experience with athletic endeavors. Since you mention individuals who are skinny-fat (high adiposity, undermuscled), that fits the bill.

Second, the problem comes about because these individuals are misguided. It is the exact same mindset that led me to drop my body weight to 164 pounds once when I am 5'10" tall. People are looking for their veins and their muscle striations and defined muscles. . . you would likely see the results if you took girth measurements of various body parts. For example, my already massive thighs went from 27 inches to approaching 29. I have stretch marks appearing on my quads and under my arms on top of the ones that I already have due to muscle gain. This notion that you will get stronger without also getting bigger is total horseshit. You won't look LEANER from doing an LP. You will look BIGGER. More men need to apply the same rules for judging their musculature that they do for judging their genitalia. A properly implemented program will make you look better - just not in the way you might be expecting. But it all clicks once you put a shirt on and realize that there is almost no material left once you get it over your shoulders and chest.

Also, say what you want to about the bros in the gym. . .but most of them have trained consistently. Consistency gets you bigger.

[Brodie Butland]

Summary: Machines are comforting. Squats are scary. Deadlifts are hard.

Couldn't have said it better.

I'd also add that the bar has been set very low, so a 200 squat is considered a freakish weight (all the way down too!?). We know better because we've seen it work...but good luck trying to convince even many exercise professionals that a three-plate squat for reps within 6 months is feasible for damn near any male below 30.

[MarinePMI]

Several interesting comments. The first being that the majority of the novice gains are neurological gains. This has been shown to be demonstratively false under proper diet and a well-run novice progression. It is almost impossible to run the novice progression properly without adding a substantial amount of muscle mass - assuming the individual is of low experience with athletic endeavors. Since you mention individuals who are skinny-fat (high adiposity, undermuscled), that fits the bill.

Second, the problem comes about because these individuals are misguided. It is the exact same mindset that led me to drop my body weight to 164 pounds once when I am 5'10" tall. People are looking for their veins and their muscle striations and defined muscles. . . you would likely see the results if you took girth measurements of various body parts. For example, my already massive thighs went from 27 inches to approaching 29. I have stretch marks appearing on my quads and under my arms on top of the ones that I already have due to muscle gain. This notion that you will get stronger without also getting bigger is total horseshit. You won't look LEANER from doing an LP. You will look BIGGER. More men need to apply the same rules for judging their musculature that they do for judging their genitalia. A properly implemented program will make you look better - just not in the way you might be expecting. But it all clicks once you put a shirt on and realize that there is almost no material left once you get it over your shoulders and chest.

Also, say what you want to about the bros in the gym. . .but most of them have trained consistently. Consistency gets you bigger.

Dalton,

I think the key distinction/point made was by David, in that we are all extremely different. When I came off another program after a year, and began SS, I weighed 164lbs, 6'2", 46yrs old, 11% BF. My lifts had progressed the year previously, but had stalled. Since following SS LNP (started 6 months ago, and ran it about 4-5 months), I added 15lbs in bodyweight and saw my lifts/strength increase dramatically (especially Squat). My squat went from a pathetic 125lbs to 210lbs currently. At the end of the LP, I hadn't gained that much weight, and clothes still fit (thought the thigh and butt were getting very snug) despite pushing all my lifts up significantly (they're still fairly weak in comparison to many here). This was all while eating close to 4000 cals a day at times and generally around 3500cals minimum. Maybe I wasn't eating enough in some people's opinions, but it was what I was capable of getting down my gullet, while balancing work/meetings/family and other minutiae that often arises with life. Even when eating at my max (and drinking a shit ton of milk), my BF never exceeded 15%.

It hasn't been until I started intermediate programming that things began blowing up. I can barely fit in my daily work clothes, and I can write off about $7000 in suits that no longer fit, due to increases in muscle volume/mass. I'm currently one pant size bigger and while my shirts still fit, they no longer fit in the same way, and are becoming snug to the point of discomfort. All as a result of the additional volume that intermediate programming introduces. I'm at 182lbs now.

My point is, everyone is indeed very different (especially those of us that are older) and their body's respond and grow differently to stimuli. At my age, I just couldn't eat my way to recovery (I tried). All I'd get is bloated and still be bone weary tired, stumbling home each night, bleary eyed from work (I work out at 4:30am in the morning, then go to work), already ready for bed. Still, I DTFP, and made surprising and significant strength gains. Did my conformation improve? To others, it apparently seemed so (comments by folks at work), but for me, it was never about the look, it was about seeing my lift numbers increase (and to some degree, seeing the scale slowly, painfully slowly, also increase) and banking on the fact that at some point, weight and size would follow.

I have always been naturally lean, even when I was younger. In my 20's my BF hovered around 8-9% constantly. Whenever I ate, I literally sweated my ass off as my metabolism just chewed through carbs/calories the moment any food hit my gut. Now, since I am running an HLM program with much more recovery, I am seeing my legs begin to explode in size, my back (for the first time in my life) is getting huge and my chest is deepening. The scale is finally beginning to move up with some regularity (not fast mind you, but consistently).

For me (in retrospect), the NLP was pushing me to the edge of over training, and keeping me there (I suspect due to age). While my strength was increasing, my size/weight was moving up at a much slower pace. My suspicion is that I was to the right of the "optimum" amount of stress from which I could recover from; but gawd dammit, I was determined to DTFP, and so powered through it. All said and done, I feel I did reasonably well, only missing two workouts (that weren't illness related, but work induced) , a couple of resets, and one mild injury that I recovered from (I thought) shockingly fast. My numbers are still small, compared to many here, but they are orders of magnitude better than when I started, and so I continue to add weight to the bar. Slow and steady.

Bottom line: Some of you guys are just massive dudes to begin with, who have carried a lot of extra weight for many years before doing SS. Some of us are on the other end of the spectrum. Making broad statements as to how someone's body composition should react to SSNLP is just incorrect IMO. I'd argue that the vast majority of guys doing this program are like you (started big with fat, ended even bigger with less fat). Even if you cut down to 164lbs once, I'd wager your body has it's own desired/genetically predisposed bodyweight/conformation. That would give you (and those like you) an advantage, as well as skew any numbers gathered from this community. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd think that there is just too much variety of people (including the extreme outliers) based on age, body type and history of training, to make generalizations about whether someone will gain a massive amount of weight during the NLP.

Shrug. Now, I'm at 182lbs, 16-17% BF, (all 3x5) Sqt: 210lbs, Bench 167lbs, Press: 115lbs, DL 305 (1x5). I'm good with this as far as progress goes, and continue to keep adding weight and getting under that bar.

I'd love to hear some of the SSC coaches pipe in with their experiences.

[Brodie Butland]

I'd love to hear some of the SSC coaches pipe in with their experiences.

I've gained over 90 lbs since I started seriously weight training at around 24 (though I wouldn't discover Starting Strength until 2011). Prior to that, was 130 lbs at 5'11", and I don't think I ever got over 135 lbs in my life prior to that. It's definitely genetic--my wrists are around 6 inches in circumference, which is considered a "small frame," and my mother has never been over 105 lbs except when she was pregnant.

I know others have had similar experiences. Tom Campitelli was extremely skinny when he attended a seminar (there's a picture floating around on this site), and he put on around 60 lbs if I remember correctly.

This stuff works even for the little guys. Being younger when starting the program definitely helps (though it also requires more diligence in eating because of the increased metabolism), but it's not essential. True, we have to put in a little more effort for gainzZz than the former athletes and the more endomorphic individuals, but we can make a lot of progress too (all with the advantage of not easily becoming sloppy fat).

[timelinex]

Woah woah woah woah. My point was poorly made. I think I will have to add some "nuance" to what I said. Obviously you guys all got bigger and added muscle. You gained alot of weight! Thats what happens when you gain weight. You gain muscle and fat. If you are working out, you skew it more towards muscle than fat if your diet is reasonable.

I got alot bigger and stronger looking as well. I've had a ton of compliments from friends and family. But ive had similar when I gained weight while on a bro split. I've never looked as "strong" as I have now, but thats also because I'm 15 lb heavier than I ever was.

I didn't mean you ONLY have neurological gains. That's ridiculous. I meant the majority of that demonstrated strength gain on the bar is from technique and neurological gains. From what I have seen, people that don't gain weight on the LP get to a low/mid 200's squat (for fahves). People that gain weight get to high 200, low 300s squat. Thats likely the muscle gain difference. Which is a formidable gain. But you would gain alot of that same muscle squatting and eating big using a bodybuilding program as well. Hence the novice effect.

So my point was that people can get just as strong LOOKING by doing alot easier routines and exercises. I have alot of lifter friends that have never touched a squat or deadlift and they are immensely bigger and more cut than me. I'm not saying they didn't work hard for it. I'm saying that messing around on the leg extension machine is never as "hard" as grinding your squat at near 5rm levels for weeks at a time. So if your goal is not to get strong, but to look good (MOST PEOPLES GOAL), then there are easier ways than 3x5 compound lifts.

[gisborne]

Lets see, I started 4 years ago weighed prob 195 m. I squatted 165ish to start. Eventually in 2 years I got to 400 deadlift and 315 squat for reps weighing 240 or so and pretty fat, like 30% bf. Then I herniated a disc doing deadlifts. Never got that strong again before herniating my disc again doing squats for sub-315. Still fat (230ish) and strength gains just aren’t there. Maybe if I got crazy fat but whats the point in that? I now front squat sub-225 and I’m still fat.

There is a ton of survivor bias in this program. Of course everyone posting got strong, they would have given up otherwise. Nothing against the program just an observation about lifting results in general.

Btw before lifting I never ever had any back problems. Now I worry about lifting 50 lb water bottles and my back feels it.

[Baz70]

I agree with what everyone has said and reiterated.
For novices like us, it's simple
1) forget everything you think you already know
2) learn, read the book, do your due diligence. and CONTINUE to do so as you progress
3) TRUST the program-- all of it, most importantly adding weight and recovering
4) realize STRENGTH gains.. If you are moving more weight, things are growing.. (see above, trust the program)
5) Find the fine line between not being a pussy and not overtraining or hurting yourself.. stay there as long as possible.
6) understand this article for a longer more productive NLP The First Three Questions | Mark Rippetoe

I'm 47, have done SS a few times years ago from age 37-41, it worked then, especially as I continually refined everything above.
I'll be 48 this year and I plan on being stronger than ever, after having not lifted in 6 years.
So today, at 47 and 2 months (28 workouts and a major setback a month ago with an injury due to poor form) into NLP doing a bastardized NTFP, I have added:
12 lbs of body weight while still fitting in 34" waist, albeit all my clothes are much more snug
80 lbs. to my squat
50lbs. to my DL
45 lbs. to my bench
25 lbs to my press
(my upper body lifts go up slowly due to a massive shoulder injury 20 years ago where my posterior deltoid was torn out of my body in an accident)
went from 1 chin to 4
Had I not been so greedy and hurt myself last month, I would be further along... . I plan on riding this wave as long as possible before switching over to Andy Baker's GGW, which I have already bought, studied and continue to learn about before I ever employ it.
So, yeah.. the shit works

[timelinex]

Lets see, I started 4 years ago weighed prob 195 m. I squatted 165ish to start. Eventually in 2 years I got to 400 deadlift and 315 squat for reps weighing 240 or so and pretty fat, like 30% bf. Then I herniated a disc doing deadlifts. Never got that strong again before herniating my disc again doing squats for sub-315. Still fat (230ish) and strength gains just aren’t there. Maybe if I got crazy fat but whats the point in that? I now front squat sub-225 and I’m still fat.

There is a ton of survivor bias in this program. Of course everyone posting got strong, they would have given up otherwise. Nothing against the program just an observation about lifting results in general.

Btw before lifting I never ever had any back problems. Now I worry about lifting 50 lb water bottles and my back feels it.

How do you know you herniated a disc doing deadlifts? Did you have a scan before and a scan after? Also, what kind of pain are we talking about?

I can't speak to your actual situation because I dont know you. But when I have talked to people in similar situations as you and every time, their situation has always been explained just by letting them talk. They generally think every pain means they shouldn't train and that they are falling apart. They generally think that every back pain is some herniated disc or some other terrible condition. They definitely ALWAYS know exactly whats wrong with them......I mean google and webmd does not lie..... On the other hand, if you talked to dedicated lifters,you find that they have ALL had injuries along the way and still trained. Minor pain or discomfort doesn't mean you have to stop training.

You are right about one thing. Everyone is different and some of us have injuries and problems that we have to deal with that the model SS'er doesn't. So what? That actually describes more of us than you think. I've had multiple injuries that I have worked through.

I recommend listening to Austin and Jordans numerous videos on pain. They also have alot of articles and so does Rip.

But who knows. I don't know you. So maybe you just have a congenital defect that makes you have a glass back. Unlikely... But I dont know.

[Dalton Clark]

Over the course of my novice lp on the squat I have experienced: ankle pain, knee pain (lateral and medial), patellar tendon pain, quadriceps tendon pain, thumb joint pain, SI joint aches, low back soreness, pain due to exertion during lifting on heavy squat days, shoulder aches during lifting, and that is just what I can recall off of the top of my head. Every individual who I have talked to who has gotten over 300 on the squat on the novice progression didn't complain about a single one of these issues. You work through them until they clearly identify themselves as a problem. You will know if they are actually a problem.