New trainee is very overweight...some opinions needed on getting his squat form bette

[grand666]

Started training a new guy this week. About 6'2 and weighs 240 (untrained) and not very coordinated. After I took him through the learning method for the Squat, Bench and Deadlift, I have some challenges I'd like some opinions on on my recommendations to him for the Squat.

Squat
- Shoulders hurt during squat grip.
I changed his grip to thumbs around and narrow to a tight but comfortable position. Told him to use a broomstick at home and just stretch it out during the day/night.
- A lot of fat on the upper back makes placing the bar difficult, rolls up during his reps and turns to high bar
I gave the cue to squeeze the scapulas together pinching a "pencil" between 'em during the reps. The bar keeps sliding up.
- Cue to sit back so he leans over more doesn't work. maybe this combined with the bar sliding up is difficult?
Told him to point his nipples to the floor to get him to lean over. it doesn't work and not sure what other cue might
- When he hits proper depth, he rounds his upper back
Had him stand up with a "superman chest" keeping the upper back straight and do a few bodyweight squats with a straight back. it worked but it fucks up again during a rep with the bar.

I just loaded him up to 65lbs. I'd like his form to be efficient first to a degree that's safe.

I realize a form check is needed, with his permission I'll post one. Just trying to figure this out by myself to learn. If I get different cues that might work I'll try those first.

Thanks guys

[coleossus]

grand666 - I've been a super obese trainee my entire career, both shorter and MUCH heavier than your new guy. I'm currently squatting and deadlifting around 565, broke 300 on the bench, and press around 250 - not a brag, but illustration that the question is probably less about how overweight he is, and more about his anthropometry

I had problems early on that sound similar to what you're describing - you'd do well to assess his arm proportions. Specifically his bicep vs. forearm lengths. I had issues with squat grip for a long time and almost dug myself into a nasty rotator cuff injury by being dogmatic about getting a textbook grip on the bar. I was doing band stretches and PVC stretches and it made the problem worse until it resulted in a layoff.

If he has short biceps and very long forearms, he will need a wider-than-textbook grip. It still needs to be dialed in enough to create the arm tension and shove the bar into the back above the scapulae, but it doesn't need to be inside the rack cups if he can't make it. A lot of people tried to force me into this position to no avail, and I used an extra-long squat bar for a period of time when squatting in racks of unfavorable proportions or design to allow me to grip the bar outside the rack cups.

I find stretches against the rack, with my hands somewhat at squat height but a little lower with my elbows pressed against the rack, does a lot better job than the broomstick/PVC method did for my particular anthropometry. If he has the same problem I did, he will also need to rack the overhead press on his arms, possibly above his chin - my forearms are so long I biologically cannot rack cleans or presses on my shoulders/across sternum.

The backfat issue is just something he needs to learn to deal with. It makes finding the proper position over the scapulae difficult, but over time I've found the initial issues went away as my body adapted. I find in general, as an overweight trainee, that light weights are harder for me to manage with good form than heavier weights - this sounds counter-intuitive and isn't necessarily something I'd advise anyone to do, but more weight on the bar forces me to use better form whereas a lighter bar I can manipulate with less effort so I can get lazy under it. This obviously has limited returns with bad form, you want it heavy enough that he can't cheat, but not so heavy if he's rounding his back even then that it won't injure him. 65lbs for a 240lb guy sounds exceptionally light at first glance.

Regarding the bar sliding up, it really sounds like a grip/anthropometry issue - very similar to the problems I had. I'd assess those first. Regarding the rounded back, a queue that worked for me was "lead with my head or I'll be dead" and imagining pulling myself head-first straight up out of the squat, doing so helped me keep my chest up and my head/shoulders tight to prevent the bar from rolling up on me.

Hopefully something in my reply helps.

[Mugaaz]

Your description really makes it sound like the upper back starts rounded during the initial setup. If he does, trying to fix it after he unrack is pointless. Lots of people try to create the "shelf" by rounding the upper back to make it a more horizontal surface. It feels secure, but leads to further rounding and the bar rolling up on you.

Also, the dude is 6'2 and 240. He is fat, he is overweight, but he is not morbidly obese or disabled. Think you're making too large an issue about his weight. Many, many novices start like that.

[grand666]

I had problems early on that sound similar to what you're describing - you'd do well to assess his arm proportions. Specifically his bicep vs. forearm lengths. I had issues with squat grip for a long time and almost dug myself into a nasty rotator cuff injury by being dogmatic about getting a textbook grip on the bar. I was doing band stretches and PVC stretches and it made the problem worse until it resulted in a layoff.

If he has short biceps and very long forearms, he will need a wider-than-textbook grip. It still needs to be dialed in enough to create the arm tension and shove the bar into the back above the scapulae, but it doesn't need to be inside the rack cups if he can't make it. A lot of people tried to force me into this position to no avail, and I used an extra-long squat bar for a period of time when squatting in racks of unfavorable proportions or design to allow me to grip the bar outside the rack cups.

I find stretches against the rack, with my hands somewhat at squat height but a little lower with my elbows pressed against the rack, does a lot better job than the broomstick/PVC method did for my particular anthropometry. If he has the same problem I did, he will also need to rack the overhead press on his arms, possibly above his chin - my forearms are so long I biologically cannot rack cleans or presses on my shoulders/across sternum.

Thanks I'll give this a shot. I did adjust his grip wider because it was really tight. I made sure to ask him if it's tight or if it's pain.

The backfat issue is just something he needs to learn to deal with. It makes finding the proper position over the scapulae difficult, but over time I've found the initial issues went away as my body adapted. I find in general, as an overweight trainee, that light weights are harder for me to manage with good form than heavier weights - this sounds counter-intuitive and isn't necessarily something I'd advise anyone to do, but more weight on the bar forces me to use better form whereas a lighter bar I can manipulate with less effort so I can get lazy under it. This obviously has limited returns with bad form, you want it heavy enough that he can't cheat, but not so heavy if he's rounding his back even then that it won't injure him. 65lbs for a 240lb guy sounds exceptionally light at first glance.

Yeah it was his first session and I didn't want to ramp up the weights too much. There were too many variables. My focus was to get him to squat to depth with all the major angles good regarding his thigs, torso and knees. Have you ever tried "pulling down" on the bar help with the bar moving up at all? It's hard to see if he has the bar in the correct position with his back fat and I dont' think he knows what the problem shelf feels like yet.

Regarding the bar sliding up, it really sounds like a grip/anthropometry issue - very similar to the problems I had. I'd assess those first. Regarding the rounded back, a queue that worked for me was "lead with my head or I'll be dead" and imagining pulling myself head-first straight up out of the squat, doing so helped me keep my chest up and my head/shoulders tight to prevent the bar from rolling up on me.

Hopefully something in my reply helps.

Thanks for your time to write this up I'll go and try your suggestions. Regarding your cue for keeping your head up, did this not affect your hip drive out of the bottom?

Your description really makes it sound like the upper back starts rounded during the initial setup. If he does, trying to fix it after he unrack is pointless. Lots of people try to create the "shelf" by rounding the upper back to make it a more horizontal surface. It feels secure, but leads to further rounding and the bar rolling up on you.

Not sure how you read it like that. I stated:

- When he hits proper depth, he rounds his upper back
Had him stand up with a "superman chest" keeping the upper back straight and do a few bodyweight squats with a straight back. it worked but it fucks up again during a rep with the bar.

...he rounds his back when I tell him to open his knees to get just an inch lower. The straightening part happened with no bar to try and give him the perception of what it feels like to keep the back straight while doing bodyweight squats.

Think you're making too large an issue about his weight. Many, many novices start like that.

I'm not sure how you're reading that. Title is saying new trainee is very overweight, I mentioned his stats since that's required for context. I mentioned once he has upper back fat. No issue being made about him being fat.

I'm getting experience training people and interning with a SSC starting July. I don't see where the issue being made that he's fat.

[coleossus]

Thanks I'll give this a shot. I did adjust his grip wider because it was really tight. I made sure to ask him if it's tight or if it's pain.

I don't know your trainee's disposition, but it may be worth noting that A) Rip's not kidding when he says squatting is uncomfortable, and B) considering my anthropometry, squatting is SUPER uncomfortable. Since your trainee's new, dependent on your relationship with him and his disposition, you may want to make sure he's not being a sissy about the positioning. When I get a nice and tight squat grip, by triceps get kind of stressed and I often have to stretch a little after I rack the squat and come out from under it.

I'd pay special attention to what Mugaaz said, especially this part:

Lots of people try to create the "shelf" by rounding the upper back to make it a more horizontal surface. It feels secure, but leads to further rounding and the bar rolling up on you.

It's really easy for bigger guys to relax their shoulders under the bar if they're built broadly enough - especially if they round their back or need to take a wide grip. I can relax my shoulders under the bar even without back rounding (I think, unless I'm doing it without realizing it) and sometimes I thoughtlessly use this as a strategy to pause between reps when I'm very tired - this puts pressure on the shoulders and spine and can risk injury. Want to make sure he keeps it tight and doesn't cheat like that.

Yeah it was his first session and I didn't want to ramp up the weights too much. There were too many variables. My focus was to get him to squat to depth with all the major angles good regarding his thighs, torso and knees.

This was smart.

Have you ever tried "pulling down" on the bar help with the bar moving up at all? It's hard to see if he has the bar in the correct position with his back fat and I dont' think he knows what the problem shelf feels like yet... Regarding your cue for keeping your head up, did this not affect your hip drive out of the bottom?

That "bending the bar" cue they use for benching and squatting never worked for me. There was a good cue I heard somewhere that was something like 'try to make your elbows touch' in regards to keeping your shoulders tight, worked better for me than the shoulder-blade cues and helped me keep the bar in position so I wasn't distracted with it rolling around, allowing me to focus on the hip drive to get out of the hole.

I've never had a problem with hip drive and it never made sense to me how you could possibly squat without hip drive. The issue I've had has always been going into good mornings or grip-related bar control issues. So, for my particular issue, trying to touch my elbows together and leading with my head/chest up (still gazing down) kept me from rounding my back and rolling the bar up my neck and killing myself. Your trainee may not have the same issue I did, and cues that worked for me may not work for him even if he has the same issues.

[grand666]

I don't know your trainee's disposition, but it may be worth noting that A) Rip's not kidding when he says squatting is uncomfortable, and B) considering my anthropometry, squatting is SUPER uncomfortable. Since your trainee's new, dependent on your relationship with him and his disposition, you may want to make sure he's not being a sissy about the positioning. When I get a nice and tight squat grip, by triceps get kind of stressed and I often have to stretch a little after I rack the squat and come out from under it.

Yeah I agree. I did tell him that some of the movements are not comfortable, but since I'm not a coach I don't want to push it. That's why I asked for legit pain in the shoulder or anywhere vs stiffness or tightness. I'll reiterate it again.

I'd pay special attention to what Mugaaz said.

Yes agreed. I just pointed out that it sounded like he didn't read my post or maybe had a misunderstanding of me "making his fat a big issue". Totally agree on the rounding of the upper back. Luckily this guy doesn't, it just rounds when he gets lower at the bottom. I'm going to try to fix that with the recommendations here for sure.

It's really easy for bigger guys to relax their shoulders under the bar if they're built broadly enough - especially if they round their back or need to take a wide grip. I can relax my shoulders under the bar even without back rounding (I think, unless I'm doing it without realizing it) and sometimes I thoughtlessly use this as a strategy to pause between reps when I'm very tired - this puts pressure on the shoulders and spine and can risk injury. Want to make sure he keeps it tight and doesn't cheat like that.

I'll focus on this also next time. With his issues getting the bar in the position his elbows are kind of low that's why I told him to squeeze his shoulder blades together instead of telling him to jack his elbows up.

That "bending the bar" cue they use for benching and squatting never worked for me. There was a good cue I heard somewhere that was something like 'try to make your elbows touch' in regards to keeping your shoulders tight, worked better for me than the shoulder-blade cues and helped me keep the bar in position so I wasn't distracted with it rolling around, allowing me to focus on the hip drive to get out of the hole.

I've never had a problem with hip drive and it never made sense to me how you could possibly squat without hip drive. The issue I've had has always been going into good mornings or grip-related bar control issues. So, for my particular issue, trying to touch my elbows together and leading with my head/chest up (still gazing down) kept me from rounding my back and rolling the bar up my neck and killing myself. Your trainee may not have the same issue I did, and cues that worked for me may not work for him even if he has the same issues.

I'm going to try that cue for the "making the elbows touch" and the head cue. I'll see what it looks like. If he can keep that tightness while looking down and his upper back is good, then I'll cue for the hips if it's a problem.

Thanks again for your time to reply.

[grand666]

Coming back to let you guys know that the cues work. First rep is always him trying to keep his torso up but leans over when I cue him. Bar stopped moving up so much and the cue "break my finger" while holding my finger between his scapulas worked for him. The others did not.

I also noticed that he has long femurs. His knees kept moving forward on the way down and one this one rep I yelled "shove your ass back and lean over". It was like day and night. His proportions moved according to the model almost perfect, depth and everything. He was leaned over a bit and actually dipped to perfect depth.

One question I have is, since he has noticeably long femurs, is changing his stance to be slightly wider optimal?

I had him do this and he moves according to the model pretty damn good. My analysis says that with long femurs, if your stance is narrow, you'll be leaned over quite a bit because your hips move further back. Changing the stance to just slightly wider helps shorten the distance between his hips and the vertical line the bar makes while move up/down. As long as his knees track over his toes this stance should be safe.

Thanks for the replies guys.

[DieselBro]

I had a hell of a time with my kid, and he was almost the same size. He had to start out taking a super wide grip to where the side of his hands was rubbing the cage... he stretched it out at home with a hunk of PVC pipe and finally got the grip narrow enough. .it took a few weeks though.

[grand666]

I had a hell of a time with my kid, and he was almost the same size. He had to start out taking a super wide grip to where the side of his hands was rubbing the cage... he stretched it out at home with a hunk of PVC pipe and finally got the grip narrow enough. .it took a few weeks though.

How did you keep the bar from sliding down with such a wide grip?

[DieselBro]

He has long assed monkey arms. Despite being that wide, he was tight.. the grip has only inched in slightly to where he doesn't rub the cage. .

I am 6'4" 255

He is 6'4" 303 at 15 years old and wears a 2 inch longer shirt sleeve than I do.