starting strength gym
Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 46

Thread: Barbells for Runners?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    St. Louis Missouri
    Posts
    39

    Default Barbells for Runners?

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
    • starting strength seminar jume 2024
    • starting strength seminar august 2024
    I was re-reading chapeter 1 of PPST. The vast majority of people who are “in shape” and do “strength training” do some form of mild resistance work that usually is insufficient to cause an adaptation beyond perhaps some initial improvement for one previously with zero exposure to weights or body weight work. BUT ... many of these people are in fact familiar with “training” in the true sense: they are recreational, but competitive distance runners. Most people, especially if you’re middle age or close, cannot jog 26.2 miles with zero training. Many cannot even jog 3.1 miles without training. And magazines, and the internet, are filled with legitimate, actual “training” programs for how to go from being able to walk a mile or two, to completing a marathon in less than five hours. I followed a very popular one of these programs (half assed) and ran the 2015 Des Moines marathon in 4:20. And I’m not built like a runner. I’m 6’2 and I weigh 255. What is fascinating is how much these same people (the recreational, but competitive running community) are vehemently opposed to doing anything under a barbell that is stressful and therefore capable of creating improvement. I suppose it is due to the misplaced belief that barbell training is dangerous and can result in injury — even though, literally, many thousands of people injure the piss out of themselves training for Boston; or simply training for an intermediate goal, like breaking 4 hours in the marathon. It’s interesting that these people do in fact understand training for a specific goal, but are unwilling, and indeed count as foolish, actual training under the bar. The reality is that if one has a goal of breaking 4 in the marathon, or breaking 3:30 (that is a hard thing to if you have a real job, family etc.) — developing your squat, and press, and upper body strength from some form of pulling like a row or chins — would be monumental. [Quick aside on deadlifts: I’m not a coach; from my own experience however, for someone training for a marathon, deadlifts are probably best alternated with squats; or done bi-weekly.] Obviously the majority of effort is toward the goal of the marathon time. And if you are actually interested in running Boston, you have to be concerned with maintaining a light bodyweight. This is a fact. But if you own a gym or you’re a coach — and you can figure out how to market basic barbell training to recreational, but competitive distance runners; you have a MASSIVE market of potential customers; even if you live in a midsized City.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    La Jolla California
    Posts
    2,285

    Default

    Sheeple.

    Fear is a helluva drug.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jeb455 View Post
    What is fascinating is how much these same people (the recreational, but competitive running community) are vehemently opposed to doing anything under a barbell that is stressful and therefore capable of creating improvement. I suppose it is due to the misplaced belief that barbell training is dangerous and can result in injury — even though, literally, many thousands of people injure the piss out of themselves training for Boston; or simply training for an intermediate goal, like breaking 4 hours in the marathon. It’s interesting that these people do in fact understand training for a specific goal, but are unwilling, and indeed count as foolish, actual training under the bar.
    Other titles for this thread:

    Barbells for Cyclists?
    Barbells for Boxers?
    Barbells for Tennis?
    Barbells for Swimmers?
    Barbells for Divers?
    Barbells for Gymnasts?
    Barbells for Basketball?
    Barbells for Baseball?
    Barbells for MMA/BJJ?
    Barbells for Secretaries?
    Barbells for Doctors?

    Your turn...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Kingwood TX
    Posts
    8,914

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jeb455 View Post
    Obviously the majority of effort is toward the goal of the marathon time. And if you are actually interested in running Boston, you have to be concerned with maintaining a light bodyweight. This is a fact. But if you own a gym or you’re a coach — and you can figure out how to market basic barbell training to recreational, but competitive distance runners; you have a MASSIVE market of potential customers; even if you live in a midsized City.
    I can't tell you how many speaking engagements and clinics I have done over the past 12 years here in my local market for the running and cycling groups. It's an affluent suburb and as you might imagine, these sports are very popular here. The response is underwhelming to say the least. They're just not interested and they're not trying to learn. It's not like they hear you and disagree, or they try it and don't buy into it. They just don't hear the message. If you quizzed them 5 minutes after the presentation you'd get blank paper back. Brick. Walls.

    It's hard for people who haven't dealt with these people to understand their nature. But you cannot separate them from the ideas that have been implanted in their brains and they are unwilling to examine them with any sort of critical eye.

    I do and have had some distance runners and cyclists as clients, but they come via referral only from another cyclist or runner. I think to penetrate to them on a broader scale, the message would have to come from one of their own. I get it...kinda.

    If you're a coach in independent business and you don't already have a foothold in this market.....find a different market.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    St. Louis Missouri
    Posts
    39

    Default

    The difference is in regard to market size. Figuring out how to market a basic strength program to recreational, but competitive runners would represent a foot into to a market exponentially bigger than any other sport you list above. Not only that, but these people are generally middle to upper middle class, and spend insane amounts of money on their hobby. Higher than cycling by a long shot when viewed as total market share (as opposed to the per person costs). There were 801 marathons in 2018 in the United States and Canada. Over 480,000 people completed the 26.2 mile distance. This doesn’t include half marathoners. The market of people who complete a full or half marathon each year is well over a million. There is a massive opportunity to reach these people with intelligent strength training advice and coaching. The problem would be finding a person who has run these distances at a total time at least fast enough to be impressive (sub 4 for the full; sub 2 for the half); and has also reached a moderately successful point in at least the squat, press and deadlift— and can articulate how following the starting strength program helped them be a better runner. I haven’t seen this to date. But this market is enormous. It’s much larger than anything else at the recreational level — no one who can run a half in 2 hours or less, or a full in 4 or less, will be put off by the concept of training. But in publications that cater to running, strength training is dealt with at the equivalent level of getting a massage or taking a steam.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    St. Louis Missouri
    Posts
    39

    Default

    I read this after I posted my response above. Having spent many hours around these people, the only person who will ever reach them with the sense, sanity and advantage of basic barbell training is a person who has done both. A very strong powerlifter will never get through to someone trying to qualify for Boston about why spending three months a year doing an LP on the squat, press and DL is a good idea. But a sub 4 marathoner who has done it will get through. Even a coach who’s never run Boston — if he’s a sub 4 guy/girl and has also squatted over 300 through a novice progression, maintainjng a body weight that will keep him fast in his running — that person could bring the wisdom of this method to a massive market. The skepticism from the running community is that they believe trying to get strong means getting big — and that’s true if you want to get as strong as you can. But a recreational marathoner who will never run a sub 3 marathon will keep his or legs and hips in mich better shape long term working through a LP once a year. If the right messenger is out there, this would get through.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    St. Louis Missouri
    Posts
    39

    Default

    This is an experiment I’m toying with. The goal being to run Des Moines in 4:10 or less on 10/20/19; weighing ~220 on race day; and in the immediately proceeding month (9/2019) squat 350; Bench 245; and deadlift 405 (1,000 lb. total); and press 185. This is going down on the lifts from where I am now (385/275/440/205); and I would be losing 30 lbs of bodyweight. But if a 41 year old lawyer with all the normal life stresses, who doesn’t sleep or eat right, can run 26.2 in 4:10 or less (obviously, 3:59 or faster would be the ultimate goal, but I’m realistic), and still total 1,000 in the big three, plus a 185-190 Press — at 6’2” 220; it would be some level of proof that a recreational standard can be kept in both fields (running low 4; and lifting a 1,000 lb total) at the same time.

    The program would look like this:

    Feb ‘19
    Run 20 min./day, 5 days/wk
    Lift:
    * Tuesday (Squat/DL)
    * Thursday (BP/Row alternate Press/Pulldown)

    March
    Run T/W/Sunday: 20/30/60 (min.)
    Last Sunday of Month: 12 miler
    Lift:
    * Tuesday (Squat/DL)
    * Thursday (BP/Row alternate Press/Pulldown)

    April
    T/W/Sn: 30/40/60
    Last Sunday: 15 miler
    Same lifting routine

    May
    T/W/Sn: 30/40/60
    Last Sunday: 18 miler
    Same lifting routine

    Jun
    T/W/Sn: 30/45/60
    Last Sunday: 20 miler
    Same lifting routine

    July
    T/W/Sn: 30/50/60
    Last Sunday: 20 miler
    Same lifting routine

    August
    T/W/Sn: 25/55/60
    Last Sunday: 24 miler
    Same lifting routine

    September
    T/W/Sn: 20/60/60
    Last Sunday: 12 miler
    Same Lifting Routine

    October
    20/30/40
    10/20 = race day (Des Moines 26.2)
    One lift day per week, light (squat/press/pulldown)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Kingwood TX
    Posts
    8,914

    Default

    Have fun. Just keep in mind there are thousands of people out there who really really WANT to learn this stuff. Seems like a waste of time to go chasing after a market that just isn’t that interested. I learned a long time ago that selling should mainly be about letting your customers know why you are the best guy to provide them with the product or service. It’s NOT convincing them why they need your product or service. If you’re doing that, you’re doing something wrong.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    3,769

    Default

    OP,

    I think it's a great goal and wish you luck. Nothing to "prove" though, in the sense of being able to maintain strength and endurance concurrently. It has been done and results should show up quickly if you Google. (If Rip would like a link I'll share; often these forums don't need links for competitors services.)

    If you just mean "prove" as in you want to prove it to yourself, then cheers. I wish you luck and am aiming for something along the same lines in 2019.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    St. Louis Missouri
    Posts
    39

    Default

    starting strength coach development program
    I have wondered whether I can run a sub 4 full and still maintain a 1,000 lb total. I know from experience can run 2:10 half at my current b/w and numbers. None of which are wildly impressive beyond a recreational level. But I don’t know of anyone who weighs over 225 that is running in the 3:45-3:50 range for a full and also lifts weights intelligently. I have some old Army buddies who do trail runs and that sort of thing, and also lift — but running a full marathon is not easy. I’ve only run one. I did the first half in 1:55; my finish time was 4:20:03. Do the math on that split — it’s not pretty. My legs hurt for a week. And it wasn’t normal muscle soreness. It was like an orthopedic problem that eventually just went away. To run 3:30ish requires a massive amount of work on the road; and it requires intelligent programming. The energy involved in this is taxing, especially if you work and have family commitments. I know of exactly no one who has done a legitimate LP in an “offseason” and who then maintains their squat and press strength above what is essentially untrained levels; AND who also runs enough to get into the 3:30 area, or even just sub 4. I am sure there are people in their 20s who are strong in the gym who could though. The reason these two worlds rarely collide is because people who like reading about Ray Williams’ squat, and what Bob Bednarski pressed in 1968, and then like to go into the gym and see how close they can get to those hallowed numbers are not usually the same people who worry about whether their weight is creeping above 170; what new pair of estrogenic neon running shoes they should buy; or whether banana flavored Gu is better than strawberry. The primary reason I think this topic is interesting with respect to marathoners — and it is really only interesting with respect to marathoners given the physical pain and damage this distance brings — is that training for a marathon is hard work if you plan to actually maintain anything around 9 minute pace or better throughout. And so those who accomplish this are no strangers to pain, nor to the rigors of actual training. And what I would love to see is someone who could communicate the basic underlying truth of what a real, three month linear progression is to someone who is otherwise a fine student of pain. That this concept is hard to communicate is, I assume, the result of bad information from the fitness community at large. I am certainly not going to be the one to provide it since I’m not a coach, nor a personal trainer, and never will be. BUT ... If I run a sub 4 for this year and maintain at least 1,000 lb total both the month before race day, and the month after, I’ll be sure to let the world know.

    And to the poster immediately preceding (Mr. Garza) — if you know of people over 200 lbs, who can at least total 1,000 on any given day (I.e., with just a simple warmup and without psyching themselves up) ... AND who can run 26.2 in 4 or less ... maybe don’t post a link, but do tell how to google this because I would love to know what their program looks like.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •