When to start programming haltings/rack pulls/deficit pulls?

[LudwigVan]

For what it's worth, I'm in the same boat. Bodyweight is 189, deadlift 1RM is 405 and squat 1RM is 350, and my deadlift has been stuck around 350x5 for a few weeks on the Texas Method. For me grip is definitely the weak link, so I think I'm going to try doing some slightly lighter DLs followed by farmer's walks or static bar holds on Mondays for a few weeks and see if that makes a difference.

[stronger]

Tried to pick up 405 today, didn't happen. Then I squatted 325 for an easy rep out of a set of 5 and decided I would probably serve myself better by taking the week off and eating a TON, so I reracked the weight and went home. I pulled a lat and need to ice it anyway.

[franklie]

Another idea is just to deadlift in a separate session. I typically do my squats and presses in the gym, and then do my pulling exercises in my garage later. I've found that the few hours often lets me recover enough to pull strong, and I have the added benefit of receiving precisely ZERO dirty looks when I set the bar down noisily.

How much do you weigh? 365x5 is a solid pull, but I wouldn't think you'd need anything fancy yet. Also, it doesn't seem wise to make programming decisions when you are aware that there are easily controllable recovery issues.

If you don't mind, what is your weekly routine? your response to the thread intrigued me.

[bugbomb]

I'm doing a mildly modified version (because I don't do back extensions) of the more advanced novice program outlined on pages 110-111 in Practical Programming. So (example) Monday was heavy squats, bench and pull ups; Wednesday was light squats (80%), press and deadlifts; Friday will be heavy squats, bench and pull ups. Next week keeps switching, except Monday's pull will be power cleans instead of deadlifts.

I always pull at home because my gym is a weenie factory and I don't want to interact with the staff at all. I sometimes do my light squats at home because I don't have to worry about inconsistent weights throwing my progression off.

Just for perspective, I pulled 390 for 5 today, and plan to add at least 10 pounds again next time. Based on what things feel like, I think I'll get to 410 in 10 lbs jumps, and probably around 450 with 5s before the linear progression slows. Squats will be intermediate by that point, I think. Bodyweight 196 @ 5'11". Weight gain had stalled since the end of December due to laziness while I was traveling a bunch for work, but I'm up about 6 lbs in the last week.

[JLascek]

Stronger, if I was coaching you, you would not have left novice programming until you were 210 or 215. This is your problem.

It's preferable to deadlift on Friday of the Texas Method for the reasons your comrades pointed out to you -- you squatted volume prior deadlifting on Monday.

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5 last year (singled at 625). He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression). He has since gone to haltings and rack pulls, and will probably pull 700 very soon.

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

[stronger]

Stronger, if I was coaching you, you would not have left novice programming until you were 210 or 215. This is your problem.

It's preferable to deadlift on Friday of the Texas Method for the reasons your comrades pointed out to you -- you squatted volume prior deadlifting on Monday.

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5. He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression).

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

Yep, I completely agree on the weight issue Justin. It's my fault and I'm working on fixing it (believe me).

the less than ideal monday situation is workable I think (it's going to have to be for now, given my school and work schedule), and I could play around with the 10 days scenario pretty soon (where some days I'd pull on a wednesday or friday, anything longer than a week's recovery).

But, you're completely correct in the most important, overlying issue: low bodyweight.

Just curious, what were the jumps on deadlift for chris with weekly, 10 day and biweekly, respectively?

[Alex Bond]

Stronger, if I was coaching you, you would not have left novice programming until you were 210 or 215. This is your problem.

It's preferable to deadlift on Friday of the Texas Method for the reasons your comrades pointed out to you -- you squatted volume prior deadlifting on Monday.

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5 last year (singled at 625). He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression). He has since gone to haltings and rack pulls, and will probably pull 700 very soon.

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

Justin, when someone gets to a weight and can't get it two weeks in a row (deadlifting once a week), would you recommend reseting down the weight or switching to lower frequency of deadlifting? I only got 3 reps at 385# (BW ~235#) this week and obviously I'll be attempting it again next week, but if I don't make it then, what would you suggest?

[kidcolin]

Two things:

1) Sometimes deadlifting once a week gets to be too much to keep the week-to-week linear gains going; however,

2) That's also a helacious squat workout you just did before hand, and I'd almost guarantee that the fatigue is limiting your pull.

I don't think people need to think about completely dropping the pull from training in favor of special exercises until they're very, very strong. I'm talking well over 500 and probably over 600 before you'd even need to consider it.

I'd look more at fiddling with the loading parameters, specifically not kicking your ass with a squat workout before you try a deadlift PR. If you're set on doing squats, either do them light or do easier front squats. If it were me, I wouldn't squat at all beforehand.

If that doesn't work, then go through the rest of your troubleshooting process.

I agree with this. My training has gone through 3 phases, more or less:

phase 1 (4-5 months starting as a complete newb) - SS to the T
phase 2 (2-3 months) - SS but DL'ing just once a week (friday for me). Heavy PCs on Monday, lower volume PCs on Weds
phase 3 (past month)- started doing a modified advanced novice program out of PP, using front squats on Weds but still DL'ing once a week. I did this for two reasons: my squat work sets are getting brutal for me (325x5x3), and adding weight 3x a week just got to be too much in addition to everything else. And two, I had neglected vertical pulling movements for too long. I know Rip advises just lighter LBBSs on Weds nowadays, but 1. learning something new is fun, and 2. FS'ing gives my shoulders a break.

Pretty soon I'll probably start DL'ing every 4th WO or every 2 weeks. Due to some scheduling issues, I had to shift a workout last week so I went 9 days between DL'ing instead of 7, and it felt eassyy, despite really struggling the week before.

Ultimately, don't be afraid to experiment a little bit to find something that works. You risk losing some gains with sub-optimal programming, but you make up for it in experience and learning.

[PMDL]

I'm big on front squatting to help the deadlift, for whatever that's worth. I think most folks would benefit from learning them as soon as possible and doing them on the light squat workouts. Something about having to keep the torso upright and the amount of quad-training just does magic for the deadlift.

That has the double advantage of not kicking your ass as extremely before you pull.

[kidcolin]

yeah, that's what I'm experiencing. I'm feeling pretty fresh going into the DL portion of the workout, whereas on M/F I'm dreading everything post-squat.