Conjugate Method

[MikeHawk]

The conjugate method (frequently substituting assistance exercises to drive progress in the main lifts) is an appealing idea to me, because it's a simple concept and is being used successfully by Westside Barbell. However, I'm having a difficult time figuring out how to work this method in with the programs from PPST2, causing greater progress than what can be had by just following his routines normally.

I think it makes most sense to use assistance exercises to drive progress in the main lifts only once progress stalls in the main lifts with whatever current programming is being used. But the cause in progress stalling in a novice SS program after a couple of the more effective assistance exercises have been added is probably usually because the stress from the main lifts is too great to recover from that frequently (mainly from higher strength levels in the main lifts), therefore adding more/substituting assistance exercises on top of that will not help. If, however, lack of stimulus is the cause of the stall at that point, then I suppose substituting assistance exercises could get gains going again, which potentially could be 5lbs or so each workout, therefore accumulating better gains than transitioning to intermediate programs.

Applying the conjugate method to the intermediate programs in PPST2 is not easy either (for me), at least when trying to beat the results normally achieved with them.

A useful question that pertains to this subject is: If assistance exercises are added to a program before progress stalls in the main lifts by doing only the main lifts, will that cause the main lifts to start increasing more than their usual amount?

Another reason I made this thread is to get suggestions on how to incorporate the conjugate method into programs from PPST2.

[Alex Bond]

The conjugate method is designed for the geared lifter. Really, I think the raw lifter is better served by Russian volume or old school TM/Starr-esque 1 to 5 sets of 5. Most of these assistance exercises WSBB uses just hammer the hamstrings and triceps, when the raw lifter needs much more quads in the squat and chest and shoulders in the bench than the geared lifter does. I think the raw lifter is better served doing a lot of the competition lifts, whereas the geared lifter does a bunch of stuff to simulate wearing a suit without putting one on, like box squats, good mornings, etc. The most common "lack of strength" issues for raw lifters, that could be potentially solved through assistance lifts, are in the bottom halves of the squat and bench, and those are solved by squatting and benching more. Whereas the geared lifter needs big hamstring explosion from a deadstop and needs to be able to have a big lockout in the bench, and both these needs can be effectively addressed with assistance. So I'm not sure how much this has to offer me as a raw lifter.

[ZKP]

I use this currently and am having great success. The variety is great, The ability to go balls out, all the time, on something new is a lot of fun as well. And I've seen good caryover to my "big 3"....4 if you count the press. The trick would be to wait until you need to do things like this to be successful. It's for when "more squatting" isn't the solution for a stuck squat..

As Alex pointed out, the conjugate system as laid out by WSBB is aimed at the geared lifter, but not necessarily. It all depends on your choice of conjugate exercises, use of gear, etc Conjugate basically means in this sense "having some likeness/features in common". Here would be an example of utilizing the conj. system for the bench press....

Week 1-3: flat bench Week 10-: Start over....

Week 4-6: DB Bench Press

week 7-9: Incline bench Press

Now would this be the best thing for a novice to do? Hardly. There is still lots that "more/better squatting/bench dead" will fix. But after a certain point it gets to where the same thing over and over doesn't work.

Squatting might look like this...

Week:1-3: 5rm improving each week (squatting 1-2 a week)

Week 4-6: 3rm improving each week

Week7: heavy singles

etc

You can also throw in / replace things with front squats good mornings etc. The conj. method includes things like Deload weeks, Dynamic effort, rep effort etc which are important and I'm not going to even try to explain all that, except to say it's a fairly involved way of lifting, but not brain surgery. There are lots of articles out there written by men much more intelligent than me. It fits right into the four day split routine in pp2ed. But then again, it's for you to decide and play with to make it work for you. It's a little more complicated than just switching out exercises, but the fundamentals are easy enough to grasp with some study.

If you're making progress, adding "more exercises" rarely create "more progress"....just a thought. Good luck.

[gzt]

If you're doing it without gear, you have to choose your exercises wisely. For isntance, board presses will still help, but they're probably a lot better for a geared lifter.

[Gary Gibson]

the conjugate method is designed for the geared lifter. Really, i think the raw lifter is better served by russian volume or old school tm/starr-esque 1 to 5 sets of 5. Most of these assistance exercises wsbb uses just hammer the hamstrings and triceps, when the raw lifter needs much more quads in the squat and chest and shoulders in the bench than the geared lifter does. i think the raw lifter is better served doing a lot of the competition lifts, whereas the geared lifter does a bunch of stuff to simulate wearing a suit without putting one on, like box squats, good mornings, etc. the most common "lack of strength" issues for raw lifters, that could be potentially solved through assistance lifts, are in the bottom halves of the squat and bench, and those are solved by squatting and benching more. whereas the geared lifter needs big hamstring explosion from a deadstop and needs to be able to have a big lockout in the bench, and both these needs can be effectively addressed with assistance. So i'm not sure how much this has to offer most of me as a raw lifter.

+1,000,000

Westside stuff evolved to serve geared lifting. The more extreme the gear you use, the more your training will have to resemble Westside's. The less gear you use, the more you just do the main lifts.

The main lifts are the main lifts--squat, bench press, deadlift, press and chin up--for a reason. They are the most efficient way to get strong, that is, they are the lifts that get you strong the best and that's why you should spend just about all your time doing them.

Goodmornings, for example, probably won't be necessary for a long while--if ever--if you are squatting properly (hint: low bar has an element of goodmorning in it already). Board presses? That's really for people who will be wearing shirts that assist the bottom part of the lift, but leave them to lock out a couple hundred pounds over their full range raw max on their own.

[ZKP]

Of course a raw lifter would do things differently.It has to do with not neglecting an area of strength. (rep method, max effort and dynamic effort) all while taking necessary deloads while getting in as much productive max effort training as possible. A raw lifter will have to select exercises which truly meet that "the same but different" criteria, and only do this after linear progression(daily or weekly) is a thing of the past. While Box squats do mimmick a suited squat, it is a viable option for the geared lifter. Not so much for the raw. The idea is to build upward moving bridges over the valleys between peaks. Maintain a complimenting max effort exercise which will grow your PL squat/bench/dead while your deload or "valley" is taking place. A Raw lifter will never replace squats with something like box squats or gm's,..... but will do something else while his squat is cycling down momentarilly to avoid detraining and maintain various small peaks and pr's in complimentary exercises. Looking at a Internet westside template is not the same as applying the principles to your own goals. For example, the dynamic effort that Rip talks about in pp2ed is an example conj. method training principles for the raw lifter.

Sprinters dont just run more sprints to get faster. At first, yes. Then it stops working. After that they increase force production (by lifting) and then have a greater sprint as an example of said increased force production. All while maintaining their groove by integrating sprinting in as well. This is for when more of the same thing is not the best answer.

[MikeHawk]

I use this currently and am having great success.

Where are your strength levels at in the main lifts? Intermediate, advanced?

Here would be an example of utilizing the conj. system for the bench press....

Week 1-3: flat bench Week 10-: Start over....

Week 4-6: DB Bench Press

week 7-9: Incline bench Press

Now would this be the best thing for a novice to do? Hardly.

What if it prolongs novice progress instead of moving to intermediate? The change to a new exercise that uses less weight and slightly different motor pattern may produce less stress than the main lift (allowing for recovery at a novice rate) but enough stress to act as an adaptive stimulus (getting novice results). Since it will be a new/varied exercise, will it not progress significantly each workout, therefore causing a similar carryover effect to the main exercise? Or can you not see this as a way to produce better results than moving to intermediate?

Squatting might look like this...

Week:1-3: 5rm improving each week (squatting 1-2 a week)

Week 4-6: 3rm improving each week

Week7: heavy singles

That's good to know that it's not just exercise variation that can create a stimulus for new growth.

[ZKP]

My strength levels are in the general training logs but are largely irrelevant insofar as explaining a basic idea of the conjugate system.

But no, I'm not a 2 plate expert, and I curse all fools who move from linear progression on the basics to something fancy because they want to call themselves "experienced" which is code for "the gains come slow".....do complicated only when you must and for most it's still a ways off. If I understand you correctly you're trying to find a way to drag out novice progression (smart) and are kicking around Intermediate routines to see which way to go.

A raw lifter (or any human in my opinion) should always squat in one form or another. If switching to front squats and GM's for a while, while putting back squats on the back burner for a sec (I know Gary, Blasphemy....and by back burner I mean still doing them in a de load type cycle) allows new PR's, vim, vigor, enthusiasm, and ass kicking to occur.....then you've succeeded. 315 on your back is light as hell after you've front squatted it.

Multiple 3 week mini cycles on a rotating schedule, creating constant PR's, are basically the cornerstone of the Max effort method. Or as you put....

" The change to a new exercise that uses less weight and slightly different motor pattern may produce less stress than the main lift (allowing for recovery at a novice rate) but enough stress to act as an adaptive stimulus (getting novice results). Since it will be a new/varied exercise, will it not progress significantly each workout, therefore causing a similar carryover effect to the main exercise?"

Except the certainty of the carryover part. That is the million dollar question and depends on exercise selection and how it well it works for you. For instance a box squat might not carryover for you to a non suit back squat. Or it might. It depends on your physiology and what needs to be strengthened, plus a bunch of other variables.

As far as what is best? As long as your squatting, benching and deadlifting, in some form or combination and have found a system that keeps you "fucking Hyped" than you're on your way....Conj. is just one of those ways.

[MikeHawk]

My strength levels are in the general training logs but are largely irrelevant insofar as explaining a basic idea of the conjugate system.

The only reason I asked is because you said about the conjugate method, "the trick would be to wait until you need to do things like this to be successful. It's for when "more squatting" isn't the solution for a stuck squat." And because you said you've been having good success with this method. I just wanted to know how you've applied it and what your results are, and I saw this info by staring at your long log.

First thing I wanted to know is if you got better results than a typical 5lb increase/week in squat and deadlift, assuming you should be in the intermediate phase of training with those numbers. Over three months you increased the squat by about 35lbs and the deadlift by less, which is less than potentially 60lbs from standard TM or something. What is your reasoning for this difference? It's hard for me to decipher your log since you're using so many different methods, exercises, frequency in a short time.

[ZKP]

Numbers have nothing to do with whether you are a novice, Intermediate or advanced. Far, closer, and even closer to genetic potential would work better. Straight linear progression only works for me on sporadic bouts from time to time anymore. Plus, 35 pounds in 3 months would be a 420 lbs gain in three years if I can maintain that.....I'll take it, no rush. Whatever small amount of strength I have has taken a long time to gain, under less than perfect conditions (injures and heavy physical labor jobs), and with a lousy understanding of programming when I was younger. If linear works for you still, use it, obviously. Was that not clear? Good luck.