"Advanced Novice" Programming

[Tom Narvaez]

Info:
Height: 5'6", Weight: ~220lbs
Squat: 365x5x3, 395x5x1
Bench: 230x5x3
Deadlift: 396x5x1, 406x3x1 (recent failure)
Press: 150x5x3
Power Clean: 190x3x1

I have been doing the "advanced novice" program like this (days are just used for convenience, my actual schedule is Sat/Mon/Wed):

Monday:
Squats: 5x5 ramped to a top set PR of 5
Bench/Press: 3x5
Deadlift: 1x5
Chins on bench days

Wednesday:
Squats: 2x5 @ 75% of Monday's top set
Bench/Press: 3x5
GHR: 3x5
Power Snatch: 7x2
Chins on bench days

Friday:
Squats: 5x5 ramped to a top set PR of 5
Bench/Press: 3x5
Power Clean: 8x3 ramped to a top triple
Chins on bench days

A couple of notes:
-My deadlift progress is sporadic at best. For example, last week I got 396x5 rather easily. This week, on Monday, I was able to get 405 for exactly 0 reps.

-I thought that maybe my squat and deadlift were interfering with each so I retried 405 and I was able to get three reps on Wednesday.

-I tried deadlifting on Fridays, but I wasn't recovered in time for Monday's squats

-Historically, if I miss a deadlift, I miss it on the ground. I generally NEVER miss at lockout. However, today I decided to try and deadlift without squatting on the same day. I missed the 4th rep of 405 at lockout. This is the first time this has ever happened to me.

-I don't have short arms. They're actually borderline long.

Basically, I'm unsure how to program my pulls. Am I doing too much here? I'm considering doing something like this:

Mon:
Squats
Bench/Press
GHR/Back Ext
Chins on bench days

Wed:
Deadlift
Bench/Press
Chins on bench days

Fri:
Squats
Bench/Press
GHR/Back Ext
Chins on bench days


This is a LOT less pulling than what I'm currently doing. I think it would be kind of shitty to give up power cleans, but my squat is still going up 10lbs a week and it doesn't make sense to me that my deadlift isn't doing the same thing. Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks,
Tom

[Mike O.]

I agree that giving up power cleans would be shitty. You should try to keep them in there somewhere.

Squatting heavy twice a week at the poundages you're working with, maybe deadlifting every week isn't going to work recovery-wise any longer, until you shift to intermediate programming. Advanced Novice has deadlift every other week for this reason. Your current setup is kind of bridging the gap between Advanced Novice and TM by having deadlift on Monday and keeping it in there every week.

1. If you like your original program, you could alternate deads and power snatches on Monday, and keep power cleans on Friday. Don't add anything else on Wednesday in place of the snatches, let it be more of a recovery day. This is the smallest change from what you have and might be enough extra recovery to run this a while longer.

2. Try programming your pulls like Advanced Novice, with deads/power cleans alternating on Wednesday, chins Monday/Friday. When your Friday squats start suffering from Wednesday deadlift with this setup, probably time to shift to TM.

With either of these setups you'll have to experiment with your deadlift increment to see what works. Since you're milking your squat progress your deadlift may not keep pace, but once you switch to intermediate it will accelerate.

[stonerider]

advanced novice is still supposed to be 3x5 on squats

[MattJ.D.]

It looks like you're trying to do madcows for your squats?, How do you expect to make gains with one set of five at max weight, twice a week?

[Mr_Rogers]

Andy suggested doing heavy (Monday), light (Wednesday), medium (Friday) programming for pulls. What I don't know is if that was for an intermediate or novice or anyone, but basically it was dealift (heavy), power snatch or power clean technique work (light) and the power cleans (medium). Would something like that work for you?

[Tom Narvaez]

advanced novice is still supposed to be 3x5 on squats

It looks like you're trying to do madcows for your squats?, How do you expect to make gains with one set of five at max weight, twice a week?

I got to 365x5x3 then stalled at 370x5,5,2. Instead of immediately resetting, I switched to Madcows to extend the run for a while. I am now at 395x5x1. I'll probably switch back next time I reset and then repeat the pattern when I stall again.

That said, what is wrong with Madcow's style of loading? You don't think it works?

Look at the tonnage in each:
395x5x1*, 1975
345x5x1*, 1725
295x5x1*, 1475
245x5x1, 1225
195x5x1, 975
Total Tonnage: 7375
*Relevant Tonnage (sets over 60% 1RM): 5175

365x5x3*, 5475
305x2x1*, 710
245x3x1, 735
185x5x1, 925
Total Tonnage: 7845
*Relevant Tonnage: 6185

It becomes immediately clear why this works just fine for the trainee in the right stage of advancement. By increasing intensity, and decreasing average weight, we decrease tonnage just enough that it returns to a level we are still capable of recovering from in time for the next workout. However, it does not decrease tonnage so much that it makes it impossible to produce an adaptation. When you add in the fact the trainee is exposed to higher levels of intensity than they are accustomed to, the end result is that an adaptation response is triggered and they get stronger. In my gym, we've gotten from people from 345x5x3 to 405x5x1, 365x3x1 to 415x3x1, and now 365x5x3 to 395x5x1 (and not stalled yet) so I'm fairly confident in this particular aspect of my programming.

I'm always willing to listen, though. I'd be curious to hear why this would be the cause of my deadlift troubles. I've had these same issues while doing 3x5 and they actually tended to be more pronounced at that time.

I agree that giving up power cleans would be shitty. You should try to keep them in there somewhere.

Squatting heavy twice a week at the poundages you're working with, maybe deadlifting every week isn't going to work recovery-wise any longer, until you shift to intermediate programming. Advanced Novice has deadlift every other week for this reason. Your current setup is kind of bridging the gap between Advanced Novice and TM by having deadlift on Monday and keeping it in there every week.

Yeah, that was pretty much the goal. I thought it would make it easy to transition right into TM when I needed to. Plus, the cleans and snatches stayed in there.

1. If you like your original program, you could alternate deads and power snatches on Monday, and keep power cleans on Friday. Don't add anything else on Wednesday in place of the snatches, let it be more of a recovery day. This is the smallest change from what you have and might be enough extra recovery to run this a while longer.

I would normally agree with something like this, but here's a couple of things to note:
On "Monday", after squatting 395x5x1, I got 405x0 for deadlift. I decided to give the original advanced novice programming a shot because it just didn't seem to be working when I pulled and squatted on the same day. So, literally two days later, I got 405x3. Ten days prior to that, and the last time I pulled, I did 180kgx5 (396lb). This to me suggests interference from my squats more than complete and total underrecovery for my deadlift. I took ten days in-between and still went from getting 5 with a weight that was less than 10lbs heavier to getting 0. I generally don't "feel" underrecovered doing deadlifts once a week, but you addressed my main concern in your next point.

2. Try programming your pulls like Advanced Novice, with deads/power cleans alternating on Wednesday, chins Monday/Friday. When your Friday squats start suffering from Wednesday deadlift with this setup, probably time to shift to TM.

Initially, I had my deadlifts on Friday. I got 396x5, but then on my "Monday" squats I felt underrecovered as wasn't able to get all my squat reps. I thought moving deadlifts to Monday would work better because that would give me three days to recover instead of two. It didn't really work out as I got zero reps on my deadlift. Now, by having them on Wednesday, even rotating them with power cleans, I'm not sure it will be enough to recover in time for Friday's squats on deadlift weeks.

With either of these setups you'll have to experiment with your deadlift increment to see what works. Since you're milking your squat progress your deadlift may not keep pace, but once you switch to intermediate it will accelerate.

I hope so.

One of the things I was considering was sticking to my original program, but just putting my pulls first in the workout. This may just pass my deadlift inconsistency issue over to squats, but I have never really had any trouble getting squats to go up and perhaps, with a reset, I'd still be able to make consistent progress.

Andy suggested doing heavy (Monday), light (Wednesday), medium (Friday) programming for pulls. What I don't know is if that was for an intermediate or novice or anyone, but basically it was dealift (heavy), power snatch or power clean technique work (light) and the power cleans (medium). Would something like that work for you?

That basically was my original program.

Monday:
Squats 5x5 ramped
Deadlift 1x5

Wednesday:
Light Squats 2x5
Power Snatches 7x2 sets across*

Friday:
Squats 5x5 ramped
Power Cleans 8x3 ramped

*I've literally been doing power snatches for two weeks. They're at like 85lbs and I highly doubt they tax my recovery much if at all. I can easily do more. I'm just working my way up.

[MattJ.D.]

No, I don't mean for it come out like Madcows does not work, its just its supposed to be weekly gains, not multiple times a week like you are doing it. I just didn't think it would work, but it seems like you're making it, so go with it.

I mean you know traditional Madcows looks like this

4x5,1x5

4x5,1x5 80% of first workout

4x5,1x3(5/2.5lbs more than first workout depending on movement),back off set of 1x8

then do work 3s weight on 4th work out then repeat week after week

Thats it in a nutshell at least, the pulls aren't exactly like that,but the pressing and squats are.

[Tom Narvaez]

It worked primarily because I wasn't deadlifting in the middle of the week a la the traditional Madcows. I know Friday is supposed to be the "heavy" day in Madcows, but it actually doesn't require full recovery.

If you hit something like 400x5 on Monday then doing 405x3 on Friday is actually a relatively "easy" set. Someone who could do 400x5, probably has a 3RM of 415 or 420. So even though Friday has more volume due to the backoff set of 8, you don't have to be fully recovered to do Friday's workout. I think that's why Madcow's works for intermediate lifters even with deadlifts in the middle of the week.

[stonerider]

I got to 365x5x3 then stalled at 370x5,5,2. Instead of immediately resetting, I switched to Madcows to extend the run for a while. I am now at 395x5x1. I'll probably switch back next time I reset and then repeat the pattern when I stall again.

That said, what is wrong with Madcow's style of loading? You don't think it works?

1) calling it advanced novice when it's not the advanced novice program from SS is confusing, and it's nice to be clear when trying to communicate

2) simplicity; by keeping 3x5 instead of 5x5 [ramping], the only thing that changes is that you insert a light squat day in the middle to give a little bit more recovery time in the middle.. the less fucking around with a program, the better, and the easier it is to track progress -- K.I.S.S.

3) your deadlift might be suffering from being at the end of a squat day, which is one of the reasons it is in the middle of the week in rip's advanced novice program

[Tom Narvaez]

Where did you put power cleans/snatches on advanced novice? Did you rotate PC and Deadlift on Wednesdays?