Chaos and Pain training

[cnp]

I find it funny that he dislikes 5x5 and such when clearly it works for a whole bunch of people. And his training will plainly not work for a novice.

For whom does it work well? I don't know of a single elite lifter who follows that programming method. For that matter, I don't know any decent lifters that use it. If you're referring to beginners, on what do you base your supposition?> That it's popular? That hardly means it's good- it means that it's easy. The Thighmaster was also incredibly popular, but I doubt it was effective either.

[cnp]

He insults Rip at every opportunity and is downright condescending toward folks who try to use a 5x5 style linear progression. He also claims sets of 10's and 12's etc. are completely worthless.

I don't so much insult Rip as his message, and I've stated more than once that the guy's ideas aren't all bad. The things on which we disagree, however, we disagree violently. At some point I took a screencap of him waving a machete around in the gym and popped it up on the blog with a positive caption. Anyone who wanders around the gym with a machete isn't all bad.

[cnp]

His claims about 5x5 seem poorly researched. He'll hate on 5x5, but then for beginners he'll recommend Dinosaur Training (Brooks Kubik loves 5x5) or the Reg Park routine (also 5x5).

I blogged quite a bit on 5x5, and Reg Park didn't actually use it. I cited direct quotes from Reg Park to that effect. As for Dinosaur Training, I have no recollection of seeing programming in that book. I recommended it for the message, not the program. You guys are fucking obsessed with programming. I'd prefer to get stronger than spend my time counting and fearing something very few people ever experience.

There was one post where he recommended CrossFit for beginners instead of Starting Strength, which is just laughable unless he's trolling or something.

I don't recall doing any such thing, but Crossfit gives you two things SS doesn't- abs and hot chicks. If you're going to be weak, you might as well look good with your shirt off.

[cnp]

I think he holds an unofficial American record in powerlifting, so he'd certainly qualify as "advanced".

I've totaled Elite in all three meets in which I've competed at 181, without wraps or a belt, and am ranked #2 at 181 right now. I've got the heaviest 2 wrapless squats on record since 1974, as well.

[cnp]

Here are a couple of posts where I addressed 5x5 directly. They're fairly well cited.
http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/201...ve-part-1.html
http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/201...ve-part-2.html
http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/201...ength-are.html

Finally, this addresses my deal with Ripp's theories:

Q: What's your fucking deal with Rippetoe, anyway? You guys agree on just about everything. Are you just trying to stir up controversy or [sic] somthing?

A: Actually, no. A lot of people have taken the comments I've made about Rippetoe to be personal, which they're not, and I highly doubt he'd give a shit even if they were. The guy appears, by all acounts, to be reasonably cool. Frankly, anyone who walks around the gym brandishing a machete has to be at least somewhat awesome. My problem with Rippetoe stems from his proclamations and admonitions surrounding overtraining. From my perspective, he spends just as much time attempting to instill fear of overtraining into his beginning trainees as he does encouraging them to do useful exercise. As such, the net result of his recommendations is nil.
"We believe that adaptation occurs on a sliding scale that varies with the level of existing work tolerance and the proximity to individual genetic potential. Someone far away from genetic potential (the novice) will adapt quickly, within about 72 hours, as a stressor large enough to disrupt such an individual's homeostasis is not really all that large and is recoverable from within that time frame. On the other end of the spectrum, the advanced trainee might require one to three months, and possibly longer, to adapt to a training stress that is sufficiently large and cumulative to exceed his highly developed work tolerance." (PP, 25-26)"Stage 3 - Exhaustion. If the stress on the body is too great,either in magnitude or frequency, the body will be unable to adequately adapt and exhaustion will occur. Selye posited that an overwhelming stress of one to three months in duration could cause death. This is an interesting observation if we consider maximal exercise to be an overwhelming stress. In practice, this is most applicable to intermediates and advanced trainees and means that a period of relentless maximal work of four weeks or longer should be avoided. The bottom line is that no one wants to be in Stage 3, which we typically call "overtraining.""(PP, 26)
All of this arises out of the astonishingly ancient theory by Hans Selye entitled "General Adaptation Syndrome" that dates to 1936. This is rather hilarious, given the fact that Rippetoe has stated repeatedly that he has no faith in sports science. As such, the man's theories about the body's recuperative abilities are based on an incomplete grasp of physiology and a strong belief that you fucking suck at life.

This man makes Rippetoe cry himself to sleep at night.

Contrast this with the opinions of people who've actually produced champions, like Abadjiev, who stated that "'In Bulgaria, many other sports disciplines were built on the methods developed by the Soviet experts. The main concept is distinct periodisation, preparation stage, interim stage and competition stage... I threw it away... Is it logical to achieve outstanding results by hard work and then stop and go back to a lower level?” Unlike Rippetoe's model, which is based upon classic Russian periodization that forces layoffs and deloads, Abadjiev suggests that lifters never stray too far from their peak performance weights. His results produced decades of champions- Rippetoe's produced a lot of pretentious dickheads who would lose a fight to a cardboard cutout of me sleeping, and who actually believe, contrary to everything we know about successful lifters ever, that "the stronger an athlete becomes, the more susceptible he becomes to overtraining." (SS 189) While he does allow that more advanced trainees can add more sessions over time, he still spends far more time focusing on the dangers of overtraining than he does the aggressiveness with which one must pursue their goals in order to achieve greatness.


To wit, he dusts off periodization, the unloved brainchild of the Eastern Bloc, and recommends a deload after every cycle, each of which is approximately one month in length. For those of you who doubt this, "during weeks five through eight, the trainee is actually "resting" from the previous high-training volume work."(PP 211) The high volume work? It's three days a week, with weights varying from 62%-82.5% of their 1RM and culminates with 25 reps with 85% of the lifter's one rep max. Yes, I think we can all agree you'd need a three week recovery period after that horrifyingly heavy month. Additionally, he recommends "a week or two of "active rest" or less frequent training with moderate weights is a good idea between cycles to assure that the trainee is rested and ready to undergo another period of stressful training."(PP 212) Is it any fucking wonder I think the guy is full of shit? I've trained heavier and harder in a cast from shoulder to arm the same week I had fucking surgery than his lifters train when healthy, in a "peaking" week. It's fucking embarrassment and a slap in the face to humanity, who he apparently thinks is weak and lazy.


Finally, I don't know of a single elite lifter who credits Ripp with his success, and Ripp wasn't a particularly good lifter. As such, I'm leery of taking his recommendations and find it odd that other people aren't. I suppose their hesitance to question the mighty Rippetoe stems from fear of ostracization and a fear of hard work, combined with low self-esteem, possible impotence, and probably fatness.

[FAM]

You might want to take a glance at the list of individuals Rip has interviewed on this website, all of whom recognize him as an authority on training and programming. They will, of course, differ on some matters as is the norm with experts. You often quote from Marty Gallagher, who has written articles for this site. Why not ask him why so many people listen to Rip? Or is that impotence also? I believe that Ed Coan is in the pipeline. Maybe you could ask him his thoughts on Rip.

Regardless, until you can explain why Gallagher, Shane Hamman, Captain Kirk, Wendler and a host of others recommend Rip as a solid resource, your opinion counts for little. Like your stature.

[OCG]

I wonder, does the power midget google himself?

[Kyle Schuant]

I get a bit tired of this nonsense about "oh but how many champion powerlifters has Starting Strength produced?"

Starting Strength.

STARTING strength.

A "start" means beginning. It's for beginners, you fuckwit. Beginners don't win powerlifting competitions, they're fucking beginners. Things that work for them won't work for advanced lifters. And whatever someone is physically capable of doing, if you take a beginner and have them train for hours a day every day at weights they can only lift for a few reps, in two weeks the person will no longer be training, they will have given up in despair.

No doubt you will say, "fuck them, they're pussies," and beat your chest and run off and have a ferocious wank. That's not very productive, though, it's better to have a routine people will actually do.

Starting strength. Starting. Fuck's sakes, it's not that complicated once you've actually coached a beginner in person.

Put another way, the Starting Strength website, unlike the Chaos And Pain website, doesn't need pictures of chicks with dildos to attract readers. It has, you know, actual useful information.

[OCG]

Fuck's sakes, it's not that complicated once you've actually coached a beginner in person.

Umm, yeah...

[kinski]

Well, I am pleasantly surprised cnp responded to this forum. Despite my attitude in instigating this thread, I have enjoyed the blog in subsequent visits. I did Starting Strength for 6 months before moving on to 5/3/1, and I think its as good a way as any to get a young man squatting 1 plate to 3 plates quickly. I will admit SS is limited in terms of conditioning,variety, and controlling bodyfat, but if your primary goal is to increase your squat, deadlift, bench, etc., its a good way to go. It's up to the trainee to decide how rigidly he wants to follow the program i.e. does he want to maintain conditioning volume? Would he rather not have to cram excessive food down his face to hit his squat reps the next day, etc. Is he willing to gain weight at a slower pace in exchange for a slower rate of progression?
If you don't mind my asking, How did you build your base of strength when you were a novice? What would you do if given a 20 year old guy who's never touched a barbell in his life? Do you have any blog entries that cover training for a guy with no base? Or any entries detailing your first years in training?