Swapping exercises, good or bad idea?

[Kenny Crox]

I want to point out that you made a declarative statement "One of the keys to progress is to change your training program up about every 3 - 6 weeks.".

Good point. I was trying win the 2013 Starting Strength Mr Congeniality by placating your Linear Periodization rant. My mistake.

Let go back to, "One of the keys to progress is to change your training program up about every 3 - 6 weeks.

I found contention with this and declare it horseshit.

And I responded by stating that my success with the horse shit program.

I am simply pointing out that non-linear periodization is NOT necessary for progress. You can get to world class strength levels using the same basic exercises.

...when systematically cycled. Yes, that is correct.

I'd appreciate if you don't try and twist my words to say conjugate training doesn't work.

I never really got into conjugate training.

I marked my calendar with a note not to discuss sensitive issues with you on the 26th of each month.

Kenny Croxdale

[Milo's Ghost]

I marked my calendar with a note not to discuss sensitive issues with you on the 26th of each month.

Kenny, you're an interesting dude, but this seriously cracked me the fuck up.

[cutlet#]

The Purple One made a funny. This is a big day.

[Sean Herbison]

I have no idea of what you are referencing with this statement.

I was referring specifically to this:

The Hang Clean also simulates the position most sports are "played in", such as rugby and grappling.

This has been used, several times, to argue for quarter squats rather than full squats. The argument is basically that quarter squats more closely mimic the position you'll be in when you play sports or jump, so it's better because it's more "specific" to what you're training for.

[Bayn]

Let go back to, "One of the keys to progress is to change your training program up about every 3 - 6 weeks.

Why?

Why wouldn't someone wait for their current progress to stall before changing up their training program?

It seems like a good way to keep you from figuring out what works, and when you need to add a little more of something or change something up.

[Kenny Crox]

I was referring specifically to this:

This has been used, several times, to argue for quarter squats rather than full squats. The argument is basically that quarter squats more closely mimic the position you'll be in when you play sports or jump, so it's better because it's more "specific" to what you're training for.

"More Specific To What You're Training"

The use of the Quarter Squat makes sense from that perspective.

Let's use Jumpers as an example.

Law of Specificity

Basically, you want to implement movement that replicate your sport.

With that in mind, Quarter Squats should certainly be part of a jumper's program but half squats and/or full squats should be utilizes, as well.

Good Jumpers "Pre Load" the stretch reflex quickly by dropping a Quarter Squat position rather than a Half or Full Squat.

Limit Strength

Strength is the foundation on which power and speed are built.

Quarter Squats replicate their movement.

Power Quarter Squats

Jumpers should also employ Jump Squat with moderate loads of 10 - 40% of 1 RM Quarter Squats to increase power.

Deeper Squats

There are some definite benefits to employing deeper squats: Greater muscle involved, increasing flexibility of the muscles, etc.

With that said, fuller range Squats make sense.

However, to maximize a Jumpers leaping ability the Quarter Squat position really need to be worked. This is not fully accomplished with deeper squats.

Strength Curve

One of the problems with Full or Half Squats (all movements) is that approximately 30% of the movement overload the muscles involved.

Approximately, 70% of the movement does not fully tax the muscle in the movement. (Research: Dr Gideon Ariel/ "The Effect of Dynamic Variable Resistance (DVR) on Muscular Strength")

That meaning in a Full or Half Squat only works the first 1/3 of the movement. The last 2/3 of a Quarter Squat have a moderate amount of loading.

Not enough to completely develop strength from the Quarter Squat position for Jumpers.

Ascending Strength Curve Accommodation Resistance

Certain movements like Squats have an Ascending Strength Curve. The further you push it the easier it is.

By attaching chains, bungees and/or bands to a deeper squat movement, you are able to tax the muscle involved more completely throughout the movement and maximize your workout.

Second Pull

This is where power is produced. This is where hip drive is developed. (34.3 Watts/Kg for Entire Pull. 52.6 Watts/Kg for Second Pull.)

Paul1 Post 2

As Paul noted, "The first pull of the power clean is also a light assistance lift for the deadlift."

Thus, very little load is placed on the muscles from that position.

Partial Floor Pulls

The reality is that any pull initiated from the floor is a partial movement, as well.

A 45 lb/20 kg Plate place the bar approximately 7 inches off the floor.

Deficit Olympic Pulls

To perform a full range Olympic pull, you'd need to pull them from your shoe tops by either standing on a platform or using 25 lb/10 kg plates.

Hang Pulls for Upper Back

Part of my previous response was that Hang Pulls are an effective method of training the posterior upper body.

Hang Pull are also a great method of increasing hip drive power.

High-Pull for the Power Look
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...the_power_look

This article by Thibaudea provide an interesting look at Hang Pulls.

One of the interesting point Thibaudeau makes is, "I prefer the hang strictly for muscle-building purposes and body composition changes, especially if you can get into a rhythm and refrain from stopping between reps. That way, the muscles stay under load for the duration of the set."

I am an advocate of "Plyometric" Hang Pulls movements as with...

Hungarian Hang Cleans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQBWxaJe2iA

This "Plyometric" type Hang Pull is an effective training method.

Kenny Croxdale

[Patrick Stroup]

harry, you seem in the right place at the heart of the matter. But sometimes you just do not see the forest fore the trees on a buncccccccccchhhha stuff I see you critique/comment on.

I think kenny was bang on, on a lot of what he said especially on variation every 3-6 weeks. Then you try and big dick him with linear and even block periodization.

Which AT ITS CORE is changing modalities every 3-6 weeks...

So in fact its not horseshit at all. Its been proven to work more times than i care to even reference.

You can cahnge from general, to general specific, to sport specific within a meso-cycle of any training block.

You can linear progress the weights up and lower reps over time (real basic block) and again. Its still in line with both block and what k is suggesting.

A fuck ton of everyone here would be greatly served to find common ground instead od declaring imaginary lines in the sand.

and on the subject of quarter squats for sprinters.

a simple block setup could be

full squats accumulation (general strength movement)
quarter squats trans/switching (general specific strength movement)
full sprints / sprint specific (sports specific movement)

[Kenny Crox]

except, all the evidence we have available(actually the only evidence we have available) is a study that shows that full squats increase half AND quarter squat strength more effectively than doing either of those variations. That is, increases in the full squat transalte to greater increases in quarter squat strength than actually doing quarter squats.

This invalidates your entire argument.

What evidence?

Kenny Croxdale

[Sean Herbison]

With that in mind, Quarter Squats should certainly be part of a jumper's program but half squats and/or full squats should be utilizes, as well.

What evidence?

I said I didn't want to get into this, because it's been beat to death and then some. Read these first. There's plenty more if you search for it, but start with these. They're long, yes, but they address your points.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=31726

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=24071

[Kenny Crox]

I said I didn't want to get into this, because it's been beat to death and then some. Read these first. There's plenty more if you search for it, but start with these. They're long, yes, but they address your points.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=31726

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=24071

NO Research Data

The post on these sites is theory and speculation.

No real research data.

Posterior Chain Activation

The benefit of a full or half squat would be in greater activation and training of the posterior chain, which is a key component in jumping.

However, better posterior chain movement would be Deadlifts, Good Mornings, Olympic Pulls, Jump Squats, and especially heavy kettlebell swings.

Brett Contreras has redefined the meaning...

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts?
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=5374326

Hip Hinge: A great method increasing jumping power.

Squat Style: An excellent method of increasing power out of the hole.

Both these method are effective at eliciting and developing the stretch reflex.

Research has demonstrated that up to 18% more force is generated when the stretch reflex is employed.

The Truth on Squat Depth for Athletes: A Round Table Discussion with Kelly Baggett, Dave Kerin and Jack Woodrup
http://www.just-fly-sports.com/the-t...-jack-woodrup/

Baggett, Kerin and Woodrup specialize in training jumpers.

Most of the information I have posted falls in line with theirs recommendations on Quarter Squats.

1) Quarter Squats have a place in jump training but should not be used exclusively.

2) Woodrup: "Using either chains or bands, or a combination of both, it is very easy to overload the top ends of the squat..."

Kenny Croxdale