Managing Lifts In Different Stages Of Advancement, Balancing Fatigue and Injury.

[Msmith68w]

Hey guys,

I am coming back from a mild knee injury. Long story short, I had developed a rather pronounced anterior pelvic tilt which had forced me into movement patterns that caused some strain on my right quad tendon leading to a rather stubborn injury that plagued me for nearly a year. I would still squat on it regularly while trying to find a fix, but it never improved and I couldn't load it heavily so my strength fell quite a bit. I finally found a competent PT who used to be a rather serious lifter (I know, shocker, they actually exist). He has actually made a fucking remarkable difference and I'm nearly fully recovered at this point. I also had a shoulder issue and he's helped me fix that as well.

I have two considerations that are making programming a bit more complicated. First, we are still working on re-enforcing positions to correct my pelvic position(and avoiding those that re-enforce the anterior tilt), so I'm utilizing the front squat instead of low bar for the time being. The PT also wants to see a fair bit of volume in the front squat (presumably to stimulate a similar response to the Starr protocol, but I'm just guessing on that). Second, my lifts are in drastically different stages of development.

28 y/o, Male
Current strength levels (best guess as I have not tested 1rms)
Front Squat - 135 (thoracic erectors fail first)
Bench - 220
Press - 150
Deadlift - 380


So my Press, Bench, and Deadlift really need to be programmed with early intermediate considerations, while the the front squat essentially needs to progress in a linear fashion, but I don't have enough experience with the FS to know if it can be treated like a traditional squat. I also need more volume so I can focus intensely on perfecting the technique, so 3x5 isn't ideal here.

Here is a link to the program I've written myself. Criticism is welcome. Rehab Program - Google Sheets

The idea is to take all the Front Squatting and increase the weight by 5lbs weekly, but generate a lot of volume(13 weekly sets), rather than run low volume and increase intensity every workout.

The other three lifts are programmed using 5/3/1(3's week shown) with the "FSL" supplemental work (5 sets of 5 using the first work set weight of the day which is usually somewhere around 80-90% of your training max which is 90% of your true 1rm).
"+" indicates an amrap set, stopping short of form errors.

The deadlift has no supplemental work, only 3 working sets, the last being an amrap. I've done this because lots of pulling will re-enforce the anterior pelvic tilt and I'm trying to avoid that for now.

The assistance work goes up by 1 rep per set each week until I hit 10 reps, then I drop back to 5's and go up 5-10lbs and start again.

My questions

1. Would I be better served to utilize a more rapid progression structure for the bench/press/deadlift? Something like HLM or one of the other templates found in PP3? I realize I could probably be making weekly progress on those lifts, but would really like to stick with the 4 day structure and this seems to sort of do the same thing (heavier work one day, volume work a different day). If you were to change, what would you recommend?

2. Should I expect to be able to progress this front squat very far with this programming structure? If not, how would you program it?

Thanks

[Suwannee Dave]

1. Why are you front squatting?
2. Why 3 sets of deadlifts?
3. Have you done the NLP?
Seems like you are mashing several ideas together, which is probably not ideal.

[Mark Rippetoe]

1. Because the PT told him to, apparently to avoid loading the hamstrings.
2. Because the PT told him to, apparently to load the hamstrings.
3. Obviously, because he's an intermediate doing 5/3/1.

[Msmith68w]

1. Why are you front squatting?
2. Why 3 sets of deadlifts?
3. Have you done the NLP?
Seems like you are mashing several ideas together, which is probably not ideal.

1. Because the PT told him to, apparently to avoid loading the hamstrings.
2. Because the PT told him to, apparently to load the hamstrings.
3. Obviously, because he's an intermediate doing 5/3/1.

My PT is not opposed to low bar squatting, or driving a hard arch for a deadlift. However, I had done enough of this to establish an anterior pelvic tilt that was persistent even when I wasn't trying to make it occur. My lumbar spine was in hyperextension literally all the time. If I was laying on my back with my legs in the 90/90 position, you could slide your entire hand and arm under my low back. This was a problem. That hard constant arch tilted the pelvis forward, which in turn limited hip flexion, meaning I would run into a wall right about parallel in the squat and I could not flex the hip any more. I could hit depth...but barely.

The idea is to make me stronger in the opposite positions for a while to balance things out a bit. Front squats are ideal for this because they require the pelvis remain neutral. You can't hit depth on a front squat with an anteriorly tilted pelvis. It has nothing to do with avoiding hamstring loading. Lower deadlift volume is not my PT's idea, it was mine. I know from experience I can't grow my deadlift with 1 set/week, but I also know that my back won't recover from high volume deadlifting. 3 sets seemed an appropriate balance.

I have in fact done novice LP, back in early 2018 before my injury. I ended with a 285 x 5 x 5 squat at 185lb bodyweight. Not impressive, but meh. Bench and Press had stalled long before the squat. Got my press up to 170, my bench to 230, and my deadlift up to 405 with 5/3/1 before my shoulder and knee injuries.

What's I've essentially set up here is the Hi/Lo program from page 154 in PP3. The only difference is that I had decided initially to use the 5/3/1 programming in terms of sets/reps for "intensity" day instead of a 5rm as Hi/Lo prescribes.

While thinking about this last night, I figured that I would probably be better served to utilize a TM style programming on the Press/Bench/Deadlift, except with 3x5 instead of of 1x5 on the deadlift for a little extra volume, and adding 5lbs to my Front Squat every workout instead of having a volume and intensity day.

Here's the modified program structure: Rehab Program - Google Sheets

Still open to constructive criticism here, or sarcastic unhelpful quips as per the usual.

[Mark Rippetoe]

My PT is not opposed to low bar squatting, or driving a hard arch for a deadlift. However, I had done enough of this to establish an anterior pelvic tilt that was persistent even when I wasn't trying to make it occur. My lumbar spine was in hyperextension literally all the time. If I was laying on my back with my legs in the 90/90 position, you could slide your entire hand and arm under my low back. This was a problem. That hard constant arch tilted the pelvis forward, which in turn limited hip flexion, meaning I would run into a wall right about parallel in the squat and I could not flex the hip any more. I could hit depth...but barely.

The idea is to make me stronger in the opposite positions for a while to balance things out a bit. Front squats are ideal for this because they require the pelvis remain neutral.

It is, of course, impossible to low-bar squat with a neutral spine. So if your spine was in overextension, this was obviously the fault of the low-bar squat, and front squats are of course the only way to address the issue.

[Msmith68w]

It is, of course, impossible to low-bar squat with a neutral spine. So if your spine was in overextension, this was obviously the fault of the low-bar squat, and front squats are of course the only way to address the issue.

Rip, I find your old curmudgeony disposition to be quite entertaining...I really do, but you've gotta stop jumping to conclusions here. No-one said low bar squats needs to be done in overextension, or that they are at fault and should not be done. What I'm saying is that FOR A WHILE, I'm going to front squat because it's a part of training myself to get my pelvis away from overextension generally, and get more comfortable with a neutral spine. I was doing low bar squats in overextension and it was a incorrect. I am not saying that they are taught that way, I'm saying that's how I was doing them because kinesthetically overextension felt like normal extension to me because of the pelvic tilt.

I plan to return to low bar in the near future. The PT agrees with this decision. So just relax, we are on the same team here. For someone who prides themselves on nuance you really seem to struggle with it in a forum setting. I guess I can sympathize with you though given the number of dumbass questions you must get on a daily basis.

[Suwannee Dave]

HTFU is an expression in cycling, and probably some other endeavors, that is used when someone is being too fussy or over thinking things, instead of doing hard training. When squatting, we are taught to prevent knee valgus by consciously controlling the position of the knees. Have you tried preventing the pelvic tilt by conscious use of the abdominal muscles?

[Msmith68w]

HTFU is an expression in cycling, and probably some other endeavors, that is used when someone is being too fussy or over thinking things, instead of doing hard training. When squatting, we are taught to prevent knee valgus by consciously controlling the position of the knees. Have you tried preventing the pelvic tilt by conscious use of the abdominal muscles?

What precisely about anything that I've said has given the impression I'm disinterested in hard training? My initial question was about how to get heavier loads on the bar faster by switching to TM style progression. Heaven forbid someone THINK about what they are doing for 2 seconds before attaching to the most basic version of the dogma and doing that without question.

Why are we still discussing this? I didn't come here to ask questions about squat form and anterior pelvic tilt. I've got that shit handled, and will be front squatting for a time before coming back to the LBBS for all the reasons listed above. Yes, I expect I will be able to put my lumbar spine into normal extension through conscious contraction of the abdominals and the hamstrings when I resume back squatting...precisely BECAUSE I've been able to alter my default pelvic position with the rehab I've done. This was NOT POSSIBLE before that. It could not be done in my case.

I came here to ask questions about programming...hence the posting in the........programming section. Sometimes you people are worse than a religion.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Dogma. You've come to the right place.

[Satch12879]

Oh, for God's sake. It's like this forum hasn't been in existence for more than a decade.