starting strength observations

[msingh]

With a lot of guys posting logs now there are a few noteworthy things to observe. You can split SS guys into two groups, ones who have trained with weights before and those who havent. The ones who have gymed for a while usually have a decent bench press. The ones who start with SS usually have a modest bench, relatively speaking. This leads to the idea that starting strength has a lower body bias.

The justification for squatting so much more than benching or pressing is that it involves larger muscles and therefore is easier to recover from (the argument goes something like this). So why not deadlift every workout? Because practically speaking you cannot -- and practically speaking you can squat every workout. My point is that the argument is not very sound, not the conclusion.

The other question is whether an ideal prequel for attempting SS involves past experience of a few months of benching (and pressing?) so that by the end of SS you have something resembling a respectable bench press as opposed to a mediocre one.

Before you disagree and say no, consider this. Everyone increases their upperbody strength on SS (bench and press). Those who start with higher numbers prior to SS end up with even higher numbers. Doesn't this logically mean that SS leaves behind some potential progress on the bench that could be eeked out of the trainee while he is still a novice?

If you argue that this is an acceptable tradoff (squat bias over upperbody strength), that's one thing, but the fact is such a tradeoff is always in effect. For instance, we squat first, then bench or press second. An upperbody biased novice program would probably NOT work the same way.

Thoughts?

[stronger]

I don't see what's hard to believe or wrong with the fact that people who had weight training experience before SS might have a higher bench than those who had no experience.

I also don't see any evidence that this is, on average true ^

the Deadlift is done every session for several weeks at the beginning, as detailed in PP2

[pauld]

Ummm, nope.

The challenge for you is to come up with some program where a novice's bench and press increase by more than 15 lbs. every 2 weeks, which is what you get if you start on SS right away as a novice without messing with some other program.

And even if you could, why do it when you could add to your press/bench while also getting an increase of 30 lbs on the squat, 15-30 on deadlift, and 15 on the power clean over those same 2 weeks?

I would go directly into SS. And I bet there are few or no programs that could beat it in a sustainable fashion.

[Platus]

So why not deadlift every workout?

Because deadlifts start from a dead stop and are therefore more difficult than lifts that contain both an eccentric and concentric movement.

The other question is whether an ideal prequel for attempting SS involves past experience of a few months of benching (and pressing?) so that by the end of SS you have something resembling a respectable bench press as opposed to a mediocre one.

The point is not to have a respectable bench vs. a mediocre one but to make increases in strength. SS seems to do this more quickly than most other novice programs, so why would you need to do a less efficacious program first? What would work better?

but the fact is such a tradeoff is always in effect

I doubt that it is ALWAYS in effect. We would need to test tons of people to see if squatting negatively affects increases in pressing movements, but I doubt it would do so for novices. For an athlete who is specializing on a movement and putting tons of volume into one lift, there may eventually be a tradeoff.

[msingh]

You are arguing that doing SS first is the way to go. But the fact is most guys who do SS first still end up with a mediocre bench. You might have a big deadlift and squat but a weak press and bench if you do the program as your first novice program. Whereas we get plenty of stories of guys who have trained for years doing bodybuilding style routines who then do SS and end up with a big squat, deadlift ... and respectable bench and press.

A guy with a decent press and bench to go with his deadlift and squat is STRONG. a guy with a weak bench and press is weak no matter what his squat and deadlift. IMHO.

[stronger]

But the fact is most guys who do SS first still end up with a mediocre bench.

where is the evidence for this?

[msingh]

where is the evidence for this?

I dont care to convince you man. I dont care what you believe or not, im describing what i've observed from reading logs and posts on this forum over time. I'm not going to go do a scientific study just so I can convince you this is what happens on SS, it doesnt matter that much to me dude.

[stronger]

I dont care to convince you man. I dont care what you believe or not, im describing what i've observed from reading logs and posts on this forum over time. I'm not going to go do a scientific study just so I can convince you this is what happens on SS, it doesnt matter that much to me dude.

if you could reference just a couple of these logs and posts, that'd be great.

You obviously care enough to make a post about it. Maybe it's just that the press and bench are weak lifts compared to the squat and deadlift and they're much easier to get stuck in

[msingh]

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=12359 (one example of previous bench prowess, he starts with 70kg and 2 weeks later benches like 85 kg).

now pick mr city or somoene squatting 300lb and pressing 40kg or something like that.

there are plenty of other examples around though, these are just two i plucked out at a glance.

[banthafodder]

I'd submit that the design of the human body itself is biased toward lower body strength, and SS doesn't cause it so much as reveal it.