What the $*&% is Holding Back My Cleans?

[Gary Gibson]

What confuses me is the low correlation with my squat and deadlift, especially my squat. I work the low bar to distraction, but my high bar and front squat are both much higher than they've ever been thanks to all the low bar work (I test them at the end of every cycle or two). The lesson from WL seems to be that as long as your squats are going up (especially high bar and front squat), then your cleans and snatches will go up. But I may not understand this properly...

Now, my deadlift hasn't budged much in the last year because I don't train it. But still I nudged it up 35 lbs when I upped my squat 50 lbs with Smolov. I wonder if the clean isn't more correlated to the deadlift..? Maybe my lower back and top-range pulling strength just isn't there because I don't work the deadlift hard enough. When I try to accelerate 205, my glutes just give up and I get that relatively light bar barely any higher than I get my max 445 deadlift.

So maybe the leg strength is there, but the back strength no longer is? Funny that because my deadlift used to be 100+ lbs ahead of my squat!

I'm not especially "explosive" or athletic with a 25" vertical, but again I was thinking that upping my brute leg strength would mean a better clean. My next cycle begins Jan 3 and I plan to deadlift once per week again. Probably going to rotate in heavy chins, too. I'd like to make room for practicing cleans. I'd probably have to do them at least twice per week, but I'm afraid they'd detract from my volume squatting and benching. We'll see.

[banthafodder]

Perhaps it's just something as simple as the fact that you haven't trained any quick lifts for a long time, and your CNS is only adapted to strength, not power. There's no doubt that having a bigger squat will increase the potential for the quick lifts to become better, but unless you've trained in such a way as to make your body adapt to firing all of that strength explosively, you'll just be slow-strong.

I recently started doing short (40 yds to 100 meters) sprints in the alley behind my house, and I'm noticeably faster after only two weeks, as I've re-learned how to stride. I've been neglecting power cleans for a while due to rack position issues (suboptimal arm anthropometry), and it showed--I had almost zero explosiveness at the start of a sprint.

I'd bet if you just focused on jumping hard and fast during a clean, you'll adapt pretty quickly. You're plenty strong.

[Tor]

Hey Gary,

I went down to the gym tonight determined to take another crack at the hellspawn clean. By way of background, I've hit 385x6 for a low bar PR at a bodyweight of 210 or so... Anyways, cleans felt good up to about 155 and then, as always, took a nose dive. Got 175 for a double, 180 for a single, 185, and then the exact thing happened to me as to you. Couldn't get what would amount to a wimpy deadlift warmup past my hips.

And once I missed the first one, my confidence was shot and I literally could not even get 135 pounds up after that.

It's always been this way and is incredibly frustrating. For the love of god, I can almost press as much as I can clean. I read Charles' comment and that sounds like a good analysis for me too so I'll try the rack pull he suggests but other than that...

...I have nothing to offer by way of advice whatsoever, but I do sympathize and if you figure this one out, for the love of god, share...

Tor

ps yes and it is Christmas eve and yes I should be wrapping presents

[Charles Staley]

Nothing to be confused about- while improvements in 1RM strength often and transfer to speed strength, it isn't a sure thing. Often SS needs to be trained specifically. A for VJ correlation, I clean 242 on a 21 inch vertical.

What confuses me is the low correlation with my squat and deadlift, especially my squat. I work the low bar to distraction, but my high bar and front squat are both much higher than they've ever been thanks to all the low bar work (I test them at the end of every cycle or two). The lesson from WL seems to be that as long as your squats are going up (especially high bar and front squat), then your cleans and snatches will go up. But I may not understand this properly...

Now, my deadlift hasn't budged much in the last year because I don't train it. But still I nudged it up 35 lbs when I upped my squat 50 lbs with Smolov. I wonder if the clean isn't more correlated to the deadlift..? Maybe my lower back and top-range pulling strength just isn't there because I don't work the deadlift hard enough. When I try to accelerate 205, my glutes just give up and I get that relatively light bar barely any higher than I get my max 445 deadlift.

So maybe the leg strength is there, but the back strength no longer is? Funny that because my deadlift used to be 100+ lbs ahead of my squat!

I'm not especially "explosive" or athletic with a 25" vertical, but again I was thinking that upping my brute leg strength would mean a better clean. My next cycle begins Jan 3 and I plan to deadlift once per week again. Probably going to rotate in heavy chins, too. I'd like to make room for practicing cleans. I'd probably have to do them at least twice per week, but I'm afraid they'd detract from my volume squatting and benching. We'll see.

[stronger]

how long have you been doing the powerclean? IIRC, you've just recently started them. This could be completely wrong though.

[Gary Gibson]

how long have you been doing the powerclean? IIRC, you've just recently started them. This could be completely wrong though.

No, you're absolutely right. I just started doing these regularly this week as part of my back-off time between heavy powerlifting cycles. Thing is, I really thought that all this extra leg strength I've built would show up quickly as speed. As Charles has pointed out--and as my and Tor's experience shows--it doesn't necessarily shake out that way.

Hey Gary,

I went down to the gym tonight determined to take another crack at the hellspawn clean. By way of background, I've hit 385x6 for a low bar PR at a bodyweight of 210 or so... Anyways, cleans felt good up to about 155 and then, as always, took a nose dive. Got 175 for a double, 180 for a single, 185, and then the exact thing happened to me as to you. Couldn't get what would amount to a wimpy deadlift warmup past my hips.

And once I missed the first one, my confidence was shot and I literally could not even get 135 pounds up after that.

It's always been this way and is incredibly frustrating. For the love of god, I can almost press as much as I can clean. I read Charles' comment and that sounds like a good analysis for me too so I'll try the rack pull he suggests but other than that...

...I have nothing to offer by way of advice whatsoever, but I do sympathize and if you figure this one out, for the love of god, share...

Tor

ps yes and it is Christmas eve and yes I should be wrapping presents

Brother...You will be in my prayers to Lord Squat and Saint Quick Lift. Your experience is so similar to mine. If I figure anything out, I will let you know first!

I mean I KNOW that months of slow strength work without attention to speed will cause a drop in speed...but I didn't realize just how much practice the power clean required. I thought I'd be able to muscle up the weight with my leg strength. But it's like Charles said...

Nothing to be confused about- while improvements in 1RM strength often and transfer to speed strength, it isn't a sure thing. Often SS needs to be trained specifically. A for VJ correlation, I clean 242 on a 21 inch vertical.

I suspect squat-clean-VJ does have some correlation within the individual athlete, but these ties are stretchy, not fixed. My vertical has remained unchanged for years despite my drastic increase in leg and whole-body strength. (I maintain that vertical leap just isn't all that trainable beyond a 5-10% increase in absolute height from lots of practice.) Clean numbers clearly go up with squat numbers...just not as automatically as I would like to believe.

[stronger]

No, you're absolutely right. I just started doing these regularly this week as part of my back-off time between heavy powerlifting cycles. Thing is, I really thought that all this extra leg strength I've built would show up quickly as speed. As Charles has pointed out--and as my and Tor's experience shows--it doesn't necessarily shake out that way.

yeah, and 195 after doing it for a short time isn't terrible. One piece of advice I can give, if I'm warranted to give any is to attack the bar. I posted a video of myself cleaning 185 a few days ago, and while I made a few technical errors, the aggression is what a lot of people miss. give my vid a look and keep pounding away

[misspelledgeoff]

i will bet you $100 that with 2x per week practice and occasional coaching you'll be at 225 in 3 months.

[Gary Gibson]

i will bet you $100 that with 2x per week practice and occasional coaching you'll be at 225 in 3 months.

Heh. I'd like to take that bet! But I doubt I'll be anywhere near a good coach WL coach for a while.

I just wrote up the next eight weeks worth of programming. It's the Three-Lift Russian Peak modified to five lifts (chins follow squats and are programmed the same while presses precede deadlifts on their day and are programmed the same as the deads) and done every other day so it gets done in eight weeks instead of nine. And guess what I'll be doing every day before squats and deads...

...Yup, I'll be linearly programming the power cleans and increasing the weight each week! Doing a light 3x3 that shouldn't interfere with the volume squats and deads. I'll get lots of practice and will be moving the bar very fast for the first few weeks. After the meet (not sure which) in late February, I'll focus a little harder on getting the power clean even further along in the back-off weeks.

[Gary Gibson]

yeah, and 195 after doing it for a short time isn't terrible. One piece of advice I can give, if I'm warranted to give any is to attack the bar. I posted a video of myself cleaning 185 a few days ago, and while I made a few technical errors, the aggression is what a lot of people miss. give my vid a look and keep pounding away

Stronger, thanks and where's that vid again?