Working towards a parallel squat for a novice...

[NameIsDave]

This is my first post, I'll try to get to the point and not sound like an idiot.

As it is at the moment, I can’t seem to get within more than about 4 inches to parallel squatting with an empty bar, or a broomstick or even just empty handed pushing my knees out as Rip shows in his videos. If I go past that point, my heals come forward off the floor to balance myself, or if I stay on my heals, I either have to arch my back forward (my gut forces it to do so) to balance, or if I keep my back straight I fall backwards. Literally, I’ve let myself fall a couple of times just to make sure I wasn’t pussing out on the attempts.

The questions are:

-Should I keep working on the squat technique without a bar, or at least without weight until I can get parallel with relative consistent technique before I begin the SS Linear progression? Or will simply starting the program going as low as I can eventually lead me to get lower and lower?

- Will pushing my knees further out through stretching in the squat position (without weight) help me get there?

- Is it unacceptable to begin the other exercises and progressions before I start the adding weight on squats, or should I just wait and do them all at the same time? From what I've gathered it seems all the lifts work together with the squat as the centerpice, so I think the answer is probably no, I just want clarification.

BTW, I’m waiting for my copy of Starting Strength in the mail, but I’m going to the gym tonight and I’d like to work on this if possible.

[Mr.City]

Have you tried stretching your hamstrings? Or having someone force you down into parallel?

[MikeC1]

Well you might as well wait till you read the book before doing anything else. Once you start, your form won't be perfect, in fact it should gradually improve over several months. But from the beginning, your squats have to be below parallel. Squatting above parallel and hoping that the depth improves over time just doesn't work. Unless you're extremely overweight, it's just a matter of teaching yourself how to do the movement. It may be difficult to comfortably get into the right bottom position with just your bodyweight or light bar, having some weight on the bar actually helps you stay balanced at the bottom. Also it sounds like weightlifting shoes will help you.

Nothing bad is going to happen if you don't start all the lifts at the same time. If I remember correctly, what I did was gradually add in each new lift as I finished reading each chapter in the book.

[ZenGeek]

If you start Deadlifting now, your back will get stronger.
A Stronger back makes it easier to keep your back straight during the squat.

My DL and Squat equal for month because they started the same, now that my DL is ahead of my squat by a decent amount, keeping my back straight is much easier.

Pushing your knees out will definitely help, as long as they remain in correct position over the toes. This is almost impossible to tell without a video of yourself, or a mirror. It almost always needs to be wider than you think.
If your knees are already in the correct position, then widening your stance will help. assuming you make the appropriate changes to knee and toe position.

[stolpsTDI]

You didn't mention this, but you're stance is ~ shoulder width at the heels, with your toes pointed out 30 deg. - right?

Something like this?

[NameIsDave]

Thanks to all of you guys for the input.

@Mr.City…
I have been stretching my hamstrings using a Technogym Flexibility machine. Over the last weeks, my flexibility has improved, but I only started trying to actually get into the squat position about 2 weeks ago. I’ve used Rip’s videos as my guide, but I haven't had anyone try to push me down yet. Also, I haven’t yet looked into other stretches I can do. I will.

@MikeC1…
Thanks, I will wait for the book until I really go at it. I’ve been stuck trying to sift through the techniques I’ve discovered through Rip’s videos and what some of the personal trainers around me have suggested. The first one I worked with insisted that when I squat, I should point my toes straight ahead even though my knees were pointed quite far out. I’m an exercise idiot, but I knew this couldn’t be right when my knees got fucked up for the next two weeks. Also, I “am” extremely overweight. I weigh 327lbs (down from 370lbs 8 weeks ago). So I imagine this also effects my form quite a bit.

@ZenGeek...
Deadlifts are my other issue. First thing, I’ve only tried them twice, so I don’t know that I’ve done everything I can yet to improve, but I can’t seem to get my arms outside of my legs to grab the bar. Again, my gut forces my legs (knees & toes) to point way out and my arms go inside the legs. But as I said, I haven’t worked on this much yet, so I’m still just probably doing something wrong at the moment.

@stolpsTDI...
I think so. I’ve tried going wider than shoulder width at heals, and that helped, but of course there’s a limit to my flexibility there as well. It seems that I’m fighting a combination of poor flexibility, the fact that I’m still so top heavy from being fat (and makes it hard to balance) and poor back strength. So it would seem that I need to attack all three at the same time. My focus of course has been the losing fat, while knowing I need to strengthen my back muscles (if even just to better handle my weight) but the flexibility component is new to me. I’ve never realized how important it is until I started to try and squat.

[MikeC1]

Being very overweight will definitely make things more difficult, but keep in mind all of the superheavyweight Olympic lifters who are able to squat and pull properly, so it can be done. Things will get better as you increase your strength and body awareness (athleticism if you will), and the bodyweight goes down.

On your deadlift, try to work with a narrowish stance, about hip width, and get your ass as far back as you can to make room for your body. Don't worry too much about keeping the bar over your midfoot if it helps you get in position more comfortably.

[jgh]

I've had luck helping friends with this problem (three so far) by getting them to do goblet squats first. It's a different exercise but certainly still a squat and it seems that they help develop a sense of depth for people with this problem. I'd rather see them do a good goblet squat than a fucked up back squat but then again, I'm not a coach so I can't perform the magic a coach could to get them back squatting faster. You'll see something similar to goblet squats in SS where he writes about shoving the knees out with the elbows.

Dan John has a really nice video where he coaches people into the goblet squat and, in fact, one guy in the video has the problem you describe but with just a little coaching quickly descends into a nice squat. See the video at 5mins.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1301858251744#

[bonesheal]

I'm going through the same thing, except that I did a lp to 265 before I learned that I wasn't close to parallel, my threads may be useful to you:
http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=24474

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=24497

[NameIsDave]

Thanks again guys. @jgh… I looked up the goblet squats video, and tried it last night (it’s similar to what Rip suggests, except for the kettlebell). I’m gonna keep working on that and stretching. I had a guy spot me last night and I was able to go just past parallel with him pushing me a little, but I still couldn’t keep my balance without his help. We also used a bench just so I could see what it felt like to lift “from below” parallel, so I’d know what it felt like when I get there. I figure part of my problem is that even once I get the position right, I still need to be able to push up my own body weight (which is significant weighing in at 330lbs). I figure if I can do parallel squats at say 5x3 or 5x5 with no bar, I should be able to start with the bar.

@MikeC1… My deadlift was pretty scary/sloppy last night. I think hamstring flexibility is also a main issue for this lift. Just getting into the correct position before the lift even begins seems only doable if I compromise on one thing or another (e.g. knees inside vs straight back vs foot position vs dragging across legs etc…) Anyway, as with the squats, I think I can get there if I just keep stretching. Using the Technogym stretcher (which is basically like having a buddy lift and hold your leg for you), I’ve already increased from a max of 45 to 65 (just last night) without even really focusing on it. Now that I know how it’s going to help me, I’m going to start focusing on the stretches for these lifting positions

@bonesheal… Thanks for the links. That was actually very helpful. And it’s cool to see you working out with your son. I have a nephew his age and about his size who just got into sprinting in track this year. Won his first meet and now he’s getting really excited about it. I’m wanting to participate more in their lives, instead of just being a couch potato around them all the time. I wasn’t always fat, and I was as active as them once. I’d love to be a mentor out in his own athletic pursuits, rather than a bad role model they have to look past. It’s a big motivator. =)