What are your opinions on Stronglifts?

[Les Hahn]

There is no way that I could powerclean my DL off the floor to rack it (not sure why I would do that). I just take the plates off and put the bar back. As for looking like a moron, I'm sure I do from time to time. I'm new though, so I don't expect to be a "master" of the gym. I learn from my misakes though! :-)

[Eric K]

I agree that SS is the better product, even if someone were to change the SL format to 3x5. It has less to do with the exercises (which are similar) and more to do with the quality of the book and explanations of the lifts in SS.

As for powercleans, why couldn't someone do speed deads or high pulls if they only care about power for their deadlift? If someone wants to do O-lifting, then they should do powercleans and eventually full cleans to get better at that sport. If someone only wants to powerlift, do you still think they have to do powercleans to get the most out of their DL's?

If you just wanted to improve your deadlift, then speed deads might help (I don't really know), but since the program is geared towards more general strength adaptation, there is other value in power cleans. I think Rip threw them in because 1) he feels that anyone serious about lifting should learn to power clean; 2) alternating pulling movements helps the other lifts increase faster, for a longer time; 3) the explosive nature of the power clean is transferrable.

[AdamW]

Ohhh god, the Andy Bolton crap. Don't get me started. That would be my biggest issue with Mehdi; his 'commercialisation' of the site. But the guy's gotta make money, and unlike Rip he doesn't own a gym so I can't hold it against him....but I can get disgruntled about the amount of crap that came into my inbox!

I think it's been mentioned on the forum before that Rip makes little to no money running the gym. He sells real products that are actually of value, and hosts seminars. And he doesn't shove any of that shit down your throat like the SL douche. "If you buy a copy of Starting Strength today I will email you a link to a top secret strategy that will put 100 pounds on your bench in 4 weeks!" Yeah, don't recall seeing anything like that on this site. Rip rules, Mehdi is a fucking idiot. The SL site used to look legit, it just seemed like a knowledge resource. Now everything on there is meant to look like one of those "easy abs in 30 days!" websites where you fucking scroll vertically for about half an hour through before and after pictures with flashing clip art on the side of the page.

Seriously can't understand how anyone on earth would think the site would get more popular after that change. The whole site reads like a shitty 3am infomercial now.

[John Bono]

I think it's been mentioned on the forum before that Rip makes little to no money running the gym. He sells real products that are actually of value, and hosts seminars. And he doesn't shove any of that shit down your throat like the SL douche. "If you buy a copy of Starting Strength today I will email you a link to a top secret strategy that will put 100 pounds on your bench in 4 weeks!" Yeah, don't recall seeing anything like that on this site. Rip rules, Mehdi is a fucking idiot. The SL site used to look legit, it just seemed like a knowledge resource. Now everything on there is meant to look like one of those "easy abs in 30 days!" websites where you fucking scroll vertically for about half an hour through before and after pictures with flashing clip art on the side of the page.

Seriously can't understand how anyone on earth would think the site would get more popular after that change. The whole site reads like a shitty 3am infomercial now.

Yep. I started with SL. His site asks for your email to get access to the forum. Instead of getting access to the forum, I get spam after spam after spam--all for programs that would conflict pretty directly with his own program, BS supplements, etc.

[thefinalsql]

I am a strong supporter of StrongLifts. Very happy I found the program. Reading that excellent article Mark posted on t-nation http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/The Biggest Training Fallacy of All Sure seems like StrongLifts falls in line with a good program. I would have been just as happy with Starting Strength. I can tell just by reading about it it is also an excellent program.

This is what I accomplished following StrongLifts for 18 months:

[Les Hahn]

If you just wanted to improve your deadlift, then speed deads might help (I don't really know), but since the program is geared towards more general strength adaptation, there is other value in power cleans. I think Rip threw them in because 1) he feels that anyone serious about lifting should learn to power clean; 2) alternating pulling movements helps the other lifts increase faster, for a longer time; 3) the explosive nature of the power clean is transferrable.

I don't think they are a bad lift at all, and I agree that they can help increase someone's explosive lifting capability. I'm sure they have merit outside lifting too, increasing althletic performance in other ways as well.

Having said that, I'm don't think that someone HAS to do them to get a good DL. I think there are other ways to train to get a strong deadlift. I am only looking at it from a powerlifting aspect though (raising the deadlift for the sake of raising the DL... and nothing else). The guys and gals I train with, and some other elitle powerlifters that I have had the opportunity to see train, don't do powercleans. Or if they do them, it is only on an occasion (not programmed weekly). They seem to be programming correctly and have great DL's that continue to increase.

I was talking with one of my trainers, and he recommends that I do speed deads, volume deads, steps, high rack pulls, and hanging high pulls to help with my DL (on top of the normal DL training). He has seen me train, and those were his suggestions, based on my weak points. These are not all done every week of course, but these are things I should add in into my training on a regular basis. He doesn't do PC's or program PC's for his lifters.

I guess I don't see why this is a bad way to train, given the success he and his lifters have had over the years. Again, this doesn't mean that you can't do PC's, but there are other ways to get strong without them.

[Les Hahn]

Great work Norman!

To add to this: He competed in the APF, and their RAW division doesn't allow knee wraps. If he had those, he probably could have got 50 more pounds out of the lift.

[Eric K]

I don't think they are a bad lift at all, and I agree that they can help increase someone's explosive lifting capability. I'm sure they have merit outside lifting too, increasing althletic performance in other ways as well.

Having said that, I'm don't think that someone HAS to do them to get a good DL. I think there are other ways to train to get a strong deadlift. I am only looking at it from a powerlifting aspect though (raising the deadlift for the sake of raising the DL... and nothing else). The guys and gals I train with, and some other elitle powerlifters that I have had the opportunity to see train, don't do powercleans. Or if they do them, it is only on an occasion (not programmed weekly). They seem to be programming correctly and have great DL's that continue to increase.

I was talking with one of my trainers, and he recommends that I do speed deads, volume deads, steps, high rack pulls, and hanging high pulls to help with my DL (on top of the normal DL training). He has seen me train, and those were his suggestions, based on my weak points. These are not all done every week of course, but these are things I should add in into my training on a regular basis. He doesn't do PC's or program PC's for his lifters.

I guess I don't see why this is a bad way to train, given the success he and his lifters have had over the years. Again, this doesn't mean that you can't do PC's, but there are other ways to get strong without them.

Absolutely. It's obviously not a bad way to train if your goal is powerlifting-focused and you just want to increase your DL. I just think the novice program from SS is more geared towards general strength adaptation, for which the power clean is helpful. And I don't think that Rip has ever suggested his is the only way to train or that it was even an original idea on his part. I would say that his biggest emphasis is on squats and eating enough for recovery; despite all the different programs out there, I don't know if there is any good general strength program that can do well without those two things. Frankly, I think he's just tired about talking about power cleans and assumes that when people say they don't want to do them it's because they are scared or lazy, which is probably the case for a lot of the people he deals with (unathletic novices) but not so much for people who have different goals other than general strength training.

[AdamW]

Really awesome work thefinalsql! I don't think anyone is going to really argue and say that the SL program is shit and won't get you results because that's certainly not true (it's just Starting Strength with more sets and one different exercise). I think most of the animosity towards the site is because it is run by a weak douchebag who has zero credentials or coaching experience and uses cheap marketing tactics to try and sell useless shit so he can make money instead of putting out a real product of his own creation that is actually worth money.

[Tamara Reynolds]

Every time the same old power clean conversation comes up, I wonder how many people have actually read the book.