Time to change program?

[jwalzer]

Mark,

My 11 year-old son wanted to starting lifting weights this summer to build strength for hockey this fall so I bought Starting Strength and Practical Programming and read them both from cover to cover a few times. Starting in late June I started him with the basics:

3 sets of 5 resp for the following:
1) dead lift
2) Standing press
3) Squats
4) Bench press

For all four exercises I preached form (and continue to do so) and let me progress slowly to heavier weight. He didn't think he was getting any stronger as dead lifting 50lbs for 3x5 wasn't in his mind strong. About a week ago we did his 1RM and he was able to squat 110lbs, dead lift 105lb, bench 80lbs, and do a standing press of 60lbs (he weighs 75lbs). He was pretty proud of himself, but I stressed that because of his hard work in July and August, he was getting stronger, and with additional hard work he'll get even stronger.

Over the past few days I've been reading about making sure the muscles are balanced. One thing I noticed is when he tried to dead lift 60+lbs for five reps, around the fourth rep his left knee would buckle inward. I immediately rolled back the weight to something that did not cause his left knee to buckle inward.
Reading some articles, it appears there's an imbalance in that his inner thighs are not as strong as his outer thighs. With that I have a few questions:

1) Should I look to replace the dead lift with either lunges or RFESS?
2) For for this month I am substituting regular squats with front squats. Is that ok?
3) When should I start working in Romanian dead lifts for hamstrings?
4) When should I start working in cleans and snatches?

Thx,
Jeff

[Roland Conde]

I can't answer all your questions, and I'm hardly well versed in younger trainees, but I think that if the lifts are being done properly there should be no asymmetric muscle development. Imbalances should be fixed with proper form, not ancillary stuff (though the latter of course is great for assistance work when the time comes).

Hopefully someone else has some answers to your other questions.


If I may inquire, why did you not start with cleans in the program? Why nothing to replace them (e.g rows)?

[jwalzer]

I started with the four main exercises Mark laid out in his book Starting Strength. I wanted to make sure my son had his form down on the basic exercises before moving on to clean, etc.

Thx

[Rob Waskis]

So you didn't have him do the program as described in the book, and now you want to have him do a bunch of exercises not prescribed in the book.

No offense, but why did you come to the Starting Strength website with these questions? The answer you're going to get (with few exeptions) is to have him do the program as written in the book.

[jwalzer]

There are five exercises listed in Starting Strength and I picked all of them except the clean and followed the program as close to the book as possible. The reason for the questions is that I've read some articles in which Mark mentions other exercises to consider to correct muscular imbalances and therefore wanted to know if these other exercises should be phased in.

Thx

[Rob Waskis]

I ... followed the program as close to the book as possible.

No cleans
3 x 5 on deadlift
performed a 1RM
Front squats instead of back squats

I'd say that you didn't follow the program all that closely. To answer your questions though (all of this is in the book by the way):

1) No
2) No
3) When your son becomes intermediate
4) Check the programming section of the book, but I think it says "when the freshness of the deadlift wears off" or something to that effect.

You sure you have the actual book?

[jwalzer]

Pretty sure I have the actual book as I thumb through the pages unless a new version was recently released...

Not going to get into semantics, but I appreciate your feedback...

[Dirichlet]

A question: are you doing the program as it appears in the book? There are some variations, but typically you alternate between two workouts. The first one with 3x5 squats, 3x5 overhead press, 1x5 deadlifts; the second one with 3x5 squats, 3x5 bench press, 3xAMRAP chin-ups which eventually become power cleans.

Now, to your questions:

1. No. Those exercises aren't proper substitutes. If his form is off, then correct it and keep on training.
2. No. The mechanics of the front squat are different and they are usually done by intermediate or olympic weightlifters. Beginners should stick to getting stronger on the low-bar athletic back squat because it is a better exercise.
3. When he becomes an intermediate and needs them to assist his lower body lifts.
4. As soon as he's capable of cleaning the bar. This is, I believe, measured by the progress of his deadlift. Leave snatches for later.

Whatever imbalances he has as a beginner should be fixed by doing the program (this also includes eating well!) and executing the lifts with good form. I do not believe it is time for him to move to an intermediate program, since he has not stalled and his body can still adapt to the linear progression. You'll know when it happens.

All the best.

[Carlos Daniel]

The deadlift being lower than the squat makes me think the squat is high. Are you sure it's deep enough?

Raw32, stop being a fucking dick.

[Dirichlet]

The deadlift being lower than the squat makes me think the squat is high. Are you sure it's deep enough?

I thought about this. But maybe it has to do with the fact that he's doing three sets of deadlifts instead of the recommended single heavy set. You can't increase as fast.