Strength is Knowledge

[Les Hahn]

Because Dave Tate is talking about moving the most weight in a competition legal way, whereas Rip is talking about utilizing the model that best allows general strength acquisition. In fact, Rip is quoted in the squat article, talking about why the squat is the most important exercise in the entire repertoire of loaded human movement. Let's remember that different goals require different approaches.

I, for instance, have just begun to compete in the sport of powerlifting, but my goals are still to be as "hard[er] to kill, and more useful in general" as I can be, so I walk out my squats even when not required to do so, attempt to follow the SS model, and pull conventional exclusively. I could train to squat super wide with a shorter range of motion and do the same for my deadlift, and possibly become a better competitor and put up bigger numbers, but I'd be, in my mind, sacrificing the point of the entire thing for competitive success, and that doesn't comport with my personal beliefs about the benefits of training. There's room for both Rip and the Dave Tate/Louis Simmonses of the world to both be right, since they're answering slightly different questions.

How does walking out squats and pulling conventional make you harder to kill? I too walk out squats, since it is a requirement at some meets, and I have to say taking 2 steps isn't a huge deal for most raw lifters. Yes, if you use a super-wide stance with multi-ply gear, the monolift is a godsend. But for raw lifters, it isn't that big of deal. Pulling sumo can still get you hooge too. Either way, you are no harder to kill. And moving more weight is always a bonus, because you are moving more weight! :-)

[Adam Skillin]

How does walking out squats and pulling conventional make you harder to kill? I too walk out squats, since it is a requirement at some meets, and I have to say taking 2 steps isn't a huge deal for most raw lifters. Yes, if you use a super-wide stance with multi-ply gear, the monolift is a godsend. But for raw lifters, it isn't that big of deal. Pulling sumo can still get you hooge too. Either way, you are no harder to kill. And moving more weight is always a bonus, because you are moving more weight! :-)

Pulling sumo can get you strong, but not as efficiently as pulling conventional, in my opinion (and Rip's). And conventional pull = stronger back, and people with stronger backs are definitely harder to kill. Of course moving more weight is good, but not at the expense of effective ROM, like in the sumo pull. However, for a competitor who only cares about being able to move the most weight within the competitive rules, sumo may make more sense for many or even most lifters. Same as very wide stance squats. Like I said, I choose not to sacrifice useful ROM in order to potentially total a few more pounds.

Maybe walking out squats just demonstrates that I can. But it makes sense to me somehow to have to establish my stance and positioning with the weight loaded on my back, rather than being able to fully set my position, and signal for the spotters to move the arms of the monolift out from under it.

[krazyduck]

Pulling sumo can get you strong, but not as efficiently as pulling conventional, in my opinion (and Rip's). And conventional pull = stronger back, and people with stronger backs are definitely harder to kill. Of course moving more weight is good, but not at the expense of effective ROM, like in the sumo pull. However, for a competitor who only cares about being able to move the most weight within the competitive rules, sumo may make more sense for many or even most lifters. Same as very wide stance squats. Like I said, I choose not to sacrifice useful ROM in order to potentially total a few more pounds.

Maybe walking out squats just demonstrates that I can. But it makes sense to me somehow to have to establish my stance and positioning with the weight loaded on my back, rather than being able to fully set my position, and signal for the spotters to move the arms of the monolift out from under it.

I dont understand this fascination with being harder to kill. When was the last time someone tried to kill someone without a weapon of any sort at all? So deadlifting with a larger ROM will make you impervious to getting hit by a car? A bat? A knife? Three guys with sharpened toothbrush handles? gimmie a break, that is about as retarded as anything paleo.

[Meshuggah]

I dont understand this fascination with being harder to kill. When was the last time someone tried to kill someone without a weapon of any sort at all? So deadlifting with a larger ROM will make you impervious to getting hit by a car? A bat? A knife? Three guys with sharpened toothbrush handles? gimmie a break, that is about as retarded as anything paleo.

Yeah, this "harder to kill" nonsense makes me laugh. If you really want to be "harder to kill" pack a .45.

[Brandon Thiessen]

You have a narrow view of what "harder to kill" means. One of the big benefits of muscle mass is it makes you less likely to be injured and less likely to be injured seriously from regular accidents that can happen to anyone. The more muscle mass you've built before you become elderly the more you will retain as you age and inevitably start to lose it. More muscle mass means being able to get out of chair when you're 80 years old and having stability when you walk around. The idea that "harder to kill" just means "it's harder for someone to murder me" is very narrow minded.

[krazyduck]

Kill implies murder, but OK.

I wasn't negating the importance of strength or muscle mass. I am talking about the implications of a 3 inch ROM difference.

[Les Hahn]

Kill implies murder, but OK.

I wasn't negating the importance of strength or muscle mass. I am talking about the implications of a 3 inch ROM difference.

Exactly. And if you look at raw powerlifters, their form is not much different than the SS style. They have to squat deep, sometimes deeper than I see people going in the seminar vids (see Candito for instance), and most bench with a moderate grip that is maybe a few inches wider than the SS style. Then there are two types of pulls, but a lot of folks do both while training and then use the best one for competition.

I guess this sort of sounds like (so maybe it isn't) that these powerlifters are cheating themselves out of strength. The truth is the opposite. If a guy can bench 500+ in competition using his style, he could modify it to the SS method and still be really strong. This same lifter also progressively got stronger using the powerlifting method, so it isn't like they have cheated themselves out of gains... they get stronger the whole time.

So to recap:
1. Most strict PL feds have guys squatting deeper than those using the SS method. So there is not cheating the ROM there. Rip asks for a PL legal squat, so really most raw lifters are not cheating the ROM anywhere.

2. Bench is about the same thing, especially if you have to keep your feet flat. If not, still the guy benching a lot of damn weight is still going to be strong using any bench technique. The lifter also became progressively stronger while training, so it isn't like the lift is a circus trick or something.

3. Sumo vs Conventional. Both work a big amount of muscles, and a lot of guys that pull sumo do pull conventional in training. It isn't like Ed Coan was cheating the whole time... seriously guys!!!!

[medsteele]

I just thought I would share some great training info, I didn't know someone was going to get all butt hurt because "That's not how Rip teaches it."
There are many methods to become stronger.

I think you mistook my tone or intent. I fully agree that each of those articles is excellent and there is tons of great info in each. I was just pointing out that there are differences in how Rip teaches the lifts and how Tate teaches them. A lot of people here know that already, but not everyone reading these topics do.

[elVarouza]

Callador quit talking sense. Medium-stance squats and conventional deadlifts will literally make you bulletproof. Anything else and you might as well empty your head with a shotgun.

[Grinder]

Pulling sumo can get you strong, but not as efficiently as pulling conventional, in my opinion (and Rip's). And conventional pull = stronger back, and people with stronger backs are definitely harder to kill. Of course moving more weight is good, but not at the expense of effective ROM, like in the sumo pull. However, for a competitor who only cares about being able to move the most weight within the competitive rules, sumo may make more sense for many or even most lifters. Same as very wide stance squats. Like I said, I choose not to sacrifice useful ROM in order to potentially total a few more pounds.

Maybe walking out squats just demonstrates that I can. But it makes sense to me somehow to have to establish my stance and positioning with the weight loaded on my back, rather than being able to fully set my position, and signal for the spotters to move the arms of the monolift out from under it.

I think that if you compete in a sport, and you limit yourself based on arbitrary purism, you are a fool.