Help with lower back rounding with flat shoes but knee pain with Oly shoes? Video inc

[Zoso]

First post - hope I'm not being redundant here but could not find much on this subject specifically. Apologies in advance for the long post.

A few years back, decided I wanted to start lifting and exercising, having not done much of that before. I read the SS book and it made a lot of sense to me. Feeling enlightened, I decided I wanted to do the program.

A complete beginner to lifting, I began working on learning the movements. I could not get the squat form down, specifically in regards to lower back rounding at the bottom, and then life got in the way and I gave up.

Fast-forward a few years, I’m married and have two kids and feel motivated again to get strong.

In my previous attempt a few years back, I had been wearing the Reebok CrossFit Lite TR shoes to learn all the lifts because I specifically liked the no heel-drop, high-top, and wide toe-box specs. I don't have flat feet, or particularly high arches, but something about the shoes always felt right to me. This time around, I started relearning the lifts a few months back with these same flat-soled shoes and could not correct the same stubborn lower-back rounding issue.

I had been watching Rip's videos and reading the articles about the benefits of lifting shoes and thought they might give me added flexibility to hit depth without rounding at the bottom.

I went with the Reebok Legacy Lifter II because I read they were a bit wider than the Romaleo Ill's and IV’s and seemed a bit higher quality than the AdiPowers. Starting to squat in them was an adjustment, but over the last few months, I feel my lower back is better-positioned than it was in the flat-soled shoes I had been using prior. The back angle is not perfect, but I feel it is a step in the right direction.

However, since I started using the LLIl's, I have developed some mild knee pain. It's not sharp or unbearable pain - more like consistent soreness that I don't recall having before. I do not have a history of knee pain.

Paying more attention to my form, I noticed that I tend to be fighting falling forward a bit when squatting in heeled shoes, and that I may be coming out of the hole with too much knee involvement that should be redirected to my hip drive. As an experiment, I went back to my trusty old flat CrossFit Lite’s and noticed that the pressure was instantly removed from the knees, albeit reverting back to fighting the battle with keeping my lower back neutral, which I just cannot seem to master.

I should also note that I gave up on overhead pressing and deadlifting in the LLII's pretty quickly because I felt unstable and that I was falling forward, and I currently do these liftsin the flat CrossFit Lite’s.

Do you think this knee pain and forward-lean is a technique issue, or are the heels on the LLII’s just not a good match for me? I know at 0.88mm they are a higher heel than some of the other options. As mentioned earlier, I don't hear much about these LL’s on here and read more about the Romaleo’s, classic Do-Win's with the 1/2 inch heel, AdiPowers, etc.

Included is a video to provide more color to this post. The first set is with the flat-soled CrossFit Lite's and the second with the Legacy Lifter II's. Unfortunately they are not from the same lifting session - I recorded them initially with the intention of critiquing my own form rather than to share but feel I may benefit from the share regardless. I am novice so please go easy on me because I certainly have a ways to go but if I could get this lower back and knee issue sorted that would definitely do me a wealth of good.

Thanks in advance.

Squat - Flat sole vs Heel - YouTube

[Mark Rippetoe]

There is nothing wrong with your low back in either of these videos.

“Butt Wink” | Mark Rippetoe

[Zoso]

Thanks for the quick reply, Rip.

Am I being too critical of my lower back position at the bottom? Specifically in reps 2 and 3 of the first set (the set with the flat shoes):

1) am I witnessing correction of an overextended lumbar spine, or
2) what point 4 in your article you linked mentions - "a little bit of spinal flexion under a load"?

I know you encourage lifting shoes with a heel in general, but given the fact that I am experiencing knee pain in them, and you note my lower back positioning in the flat-soled shoes is ok, if I do not experience knee pain in the flat soles, would it be safe to assume it is ok to continue lifting in the flat soles?

[Satch12879]

You need to get your stance width consistent when wearing both sets of shoes.

[Zoso]

Thanks for that. I’ll give that a shot also. For some reason I feel like with the heel, my stance feels more stable closer together so my legs don’t cave in from the imbalance I feel with the heel, vs. with the flat soles, I feel stronger with the feet out a bit more.

Is there a certain one of the two stances which seems more correct judging by the videos?

[Zoso]

Squat Form Check - 135 w/ lifters - YouTube

Here’s another video from yesterday’s session. Would love to hear some thoughts. I did a 30 min coaching session at a Starting Strength Gym last week after posting this thread and they told me two things:

1) Point my feet in a little - they said I was putting them out more than 30 degrees which is why I might have been having some trouble keeping my knees out

2) Widen my grip. My grip in my original post was almost at the inside edge of the knurling. I always assumed getting it as tight as possible was the way to go and I could do it (uncomfortably)…so I did. I think this was causing my upper back to bunch up too much, which was causing the bar to be too high up my back, and then when I squatted the bar would slide down trying to get to where it should’ve been to start. This was also loading my arms and causing golfer’s elbow on my right side and pulling my hips forward to try and take some of the load…I think. To be honest, the grip feels a bit too wide now - he had my put my pinkies on the IPF score mark - but I don’t feel it resting on any bone so I’m going with it for now.

I think pointing my toes in a bit helped with my knees tracking and made me more efficient (stronger). However, to me, it looks like I’m still struggling with my knees shooting forward at the bottom and with my elbows being a bit too high - not sure how to fix these. I believe my lower back rounding has mostly corrected itself.

Would welcome any further input.

A note - I’ve never actually lifted a bar with this much weight before. I know it’s not much but it was a little mini milestone for me, especially because it did not feel difficult. Already looking forward to adding 5lb to the bar next session.

Thanks!