On the polarisation of cardio and strength.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Then you are unfamiliar with the science, Bolla.

[gimble]

This is the same mistake as some people make with the evolution versus creation debate. The assumption is made that because there are two opposite arguments, both have equal weight.

The science in both that debate and this one suggests this simply isn't the case.

[Bolla]

If the goal is either optimal strength or endurance development

But my needs are as follows:

I need long term endurance for my major hobbies: skiing (trekking to mountain tops - 3/5 hour ascent with heavy equipment), mountain trekking in the summer (5/9 hours a day)

I need strength to improve: skiing downhill (telemark style), strength assymmetry (causing bad posture and wobbly knees), fencing performance, kajakking performance and looks when trekking with my shirt off of course :-)

My simplistic formula is to try to divide the year into 4 three month periods with alternating focus on strength and endurance:

Strength period:

Strength A/Off/LSD short/Strength B/Off/LSD short/Strength A/Off in perpetuity

Goals: 1. Improve strength 2. Maintain some endurance

I should be able to recouperate fully from the LSD in 24 hours
Off day between strength training workout and LSD should ensure most of the gains from the strength training can be maintained

Endurance period:

LSD long/ LSD short/Strength A/Off/LSD long/ LSD short/Strength B/Off in perpetuity

Goals: 1. Improve endurance 2. Maintain most of previous strength gains

Should be ready for the Long LSD because of off day after strength training

I fully appreciate that both strength and endurance will improve more slowly than with a pure strength or LSD program because of the periodization and hormonal issues.

Thoughts, considering the rather complex goals stated ?

[Mark Rippetoe]

My thoughts are that you don't understand the relationship between strength and endurance, a topic dealt with in my books. I'll ask CF's endurance guy to explain this to you better.

[anaerobic]

I think there is a great misunderstanding about met-con, cardio, or aerobic training in not only the endurance communities, but even the entire fitness community, and even within the confines of CrossFit.

Aerobic/Oxidative training has real limitations. So real, that they come at the expense of other things. Strength being one of them. Doesn't matter how you cut it, no matter what studies you want to look at or who experiences it... Those who overtrain in an oxidative state are weak. Those who overtrain in shorter pathways will loose out on the oxidative end... BUT, in our research and experience it is the optimal utilization of all of this that has created a superior endurance athlete.

Strength training has been found to be one of the most important parts of starting an endurance athletes program. I know this too, that when a 5 x 5 back squat workout is applied that one of two things happens. 1) absolute misunderstanding of how a 5 x 5 BS wko should be, which is accompanied by that's all I am doing today, or 2) Absolute understanding of a 5 x 5 BS wko... Which means complete fear has set in prior to the wko because the athlete now understands what strength training is.

Furthermore, you have two choices as to how to deal with longer distances. Your aerobic base is your aerobic base. Period! The only way to push it is anaerobically in conditioned individuals. You can either break yourself down with junk miles in order to build the tissue up enough to deal with the longer miles, or you can strength train. The soreness that is achieved when running, or riding, or rowing longer is not a lack in aerobic conditioning... It is a lack of Strength and Conditioning.

hope this helps...

brian mackenzie
crossfit endurance

[Bolla]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

I hope I understand your main point:

- It is better to train anaerobically than LSD

My new question: How do you mix that up with e.g. the SS program ? Is't it hard to recouperate fast enough to avoid injury or overtraining.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about 5x5 BS - Do you mean that it is advisible to train anaerobicly pre- or post back squats or exactly the opposite ?

BTW - soreness is not usually the limiting factor on my treks, lethargy is.

Bolla

[naf7]

Brian,

While your on here, I thought I'd ask you about my plan as well. I'm a former competitive distance runner, who consistently has lost all strength gains while training for XC. I'd like to keep them this time, but I also want to run fast, at least close to my PR. About 1.5 yrs ago, I PRed in the 3-mile at 18:11. I weighed 135 lbs at 5'9, ~10% BF. I now weigh 186 lbs, ~18% BF. I will have completed SS in a couple of months, at which point I will switch to CF WOD's and try to drop down to around 170 lbs. Then, I will do LSD (7:30/mi pace) until I can do around 7-8 miles continuously at this pace (aerobic base), lifting once a week. This may take a couple of months. From there I plan to do CF Endurance for 2-3 months until it gets cold again. Do you think this is a reasonable plan?

Also, Bolla, you won't make any strength gains if you throw in the LSD. Just leave it out while you do SS. You'll get out of shape for a little while, but it's not that hard to get back in shape later.

[JLascek]

I didn't read the block of text that is the original post, but I will say that after doing strength training stuff for two years (no cardio), I managed to chase my girlfriend for 3 miles without stopping. The pace was pretty decent, too. And man was my back stiff the whole time - all those deadlifts caused my posture to be amazing, and I couldn't slouch forward even if I tried.

She must have really wanted to get away.

[Mark Rippetoe]

My new question: How do you mix that up with e.g. the SS program ? Isn't it hard to recuperate fast enough to avoid injury or overtraining.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about 5x5 BS - Do you mean that it is advisable to train anaerobically pre- or post back squats or exactly the opposite ?

You are making no sense at this point.

[Polynomial]

She must have really wanted to get away.

That's right: she knew that they day after that I was going to make her squat at the gym.