Functional exercises for the Abs

[Troy]

Hi Mark,

Am I right in saying that roman chair situps may not be the best if say (you think) back/front squating is wanting for stronger abs -- as any situp is kind-of a 'eccentric' movement (in relation to the squat) , as the abs in the squats and DLs need to brace the oppostite direction?

I know you're not a fan of 'ab work' mania, and I don't really care for it all either.
So doing RC situps might be good for the Press, but as also the Press needs isometric strength in the abs, would it not be better to do say Roman chair "crunches" or even isometric situp holds on the RC?

...which kinda gets me thinking again with 'ab work', the whole spinal flexion thing which is bad --as abs s'pose to brace not really move. What's your view on the more 'modern' ab exercises that s'pose to be healther than plain situps, like 'planks' or even hanging leg raises etc?


Sincerely,

Troy

[Mark Rippetoe]

My take on abs: http://startingstrength.com/articles/abs_rippetoe.pdf

[Troy]

I did read that one, and again just now --honestly.

I s'pose the crux of what i'm asking is,
...In SS (page 166 2nd Ed) the RC situps are recomended for the Press.
I would of thought that until the intermediate stage, just squating and DLs would be enough to make the abs strong?

(re PDF)
Hmm, so as crunches have very little ROM and thus difficult to gauge work , hence no good.

...So you don't think that doing say isometric weighted holds on a RC would be productive? --I thought that seems to be more functional than any situp??


Cheers again.

[stef]

So you don't think that doing say isometric weighted holds on a RC would be productive?

Not compared to jerk supports, for both loading and specific training stress.

[ZenGeek]

This graph is fantastic.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...ad.php?t=22251

[Mark Rippetoe]

What do you like about it?

[ZenGeek]

It has pictures and well labeled axes....?

To be honest it's not as relevant as I thought as it doesn't show sit ups on here. I thought it showed superior muscle activation during isometric contractions vs sit up type deals, but I must have been thinking of a different thread.

[Troy]

... I kinda thought alot of 'research' that shows alot of muscle activation electrical response is a bit of a red-herning sometimes. It reminds me of the whole testosterone levels and training duration --I thought there was no actual real evidence that testostrone levels 'dropping off' after 45mins mattered at all. ---Like EMG activity and particular muscle groups.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It is a red-HERRING most of the time. What kind of an inexperienced moron actually thinks that a 70% "squat" exceeds a 90% deadlift in longissimus recruitment, or that a pushup exceeds a 90% deadlift in rectus abdominis activation by a factor of 5? I have a big problem with most surface EMG used as a proxy for motor unit recruitment.

[Troy]

... bit of a red-herning sometimes.

...Sorry myself -- Typo , it's red-herring.

...Hmm, well even if the EMG was 100% spot on, Strength is muscle co-ordination w/ CNS , so that's why I originally thought that say isometrics on a Roman Chair wouldn't be bad -- as they mimic Press work better.