Stand with your feet overpronated (your normal stance) and then supinate them for a set of 20. What do you feel? Be very specific.
Member
Overpronation and Lifting
Howdy,
I started lifting in the middle of last year, following a pseudo-SS program. It worked for a few months, but at a point I began to develop knee pain in my right knee. I thought the problem was my squat form, so I got the help of some other people who had been lifting for longer and was assured that I was going to parallel and that my knees were tracking my feet during squats. They did not see relevant issues with my other forms. I reluctantly gave up on lifting with family members implying that it's just impossible for some people to lift weights.
However, after a few months of not lifting, the knee pain persisted and even seemed to get worse. After visiting an orthopedic doctor, an MRI revealed that the knee pain was caused by my knee cap going off track, but I was surprised to discover that the problem was actually being caused by my right foot. A quick analysis of my gait lead him to say that I was overpronating my right foot and that always walking like this was driving my knee cap off track. A pair of Brooks Adrenaline GTS running shoes, some Superfeet insoles and a few weeks of PT (with some take-away stretches/exercises that were supposed to "pull the knee cap and keep it on track") and I was good. I never got to "see" if my knee cap returned to its track, but the shoes made the pain go away. Similarly, I replaced barefoot walking with walking in some Superfeet sandals as just a few minutes of walking barefoot would bring the knee pain back.
My feet when I attempt to stand neutral: http://i.imgur.com/d37IR.jpg
My feet when I stand naturally: http://i.imgur.com/BtkmW.jpg
This was all fine until I decided that I would like to return to lifting in December. I wanted to do things right so I picked up a copy of SS:BBT3 and read through it. I had assumed my insoles would fix any problem, so I picked up a pair of Chucks and began lifting again. Everything went great initially, but once my lifts got back up to my bodyweight my knee started hurting again. I had others check my form again and it appeared to be fine, so the shoes were obviously the culprit. I compared the Chucks with my running shoes and the problem seemed to be that the canvas simply didn't hold my arch up like the inner support on the running shoe. I tried switching to an Adidas lifting shoe ( http://www.shopadidas.com/product/me...er-shoes/SN823 ) but the same problem occurred and the insoles were unable to help. It's worth noting that lifting in my running shoes prevents the pain, but there seems to be a consensus that lifting in running shoes is bad. My family has again become unsupportive, but I'm sure there's got to be something I can do to lift without my knee cap riding off track. I have been hesitant to return to the orthopedic doctor since they seem to have the attitude of, "if lifting is making it hurt, stop lifting." SS:BBT3 was inspiring in terms of everyone being able to lift if they're willing to take the necessary precautions.
Using the search function and Google in general, it seems like overpronation is a problem that shouldn't really matter for lifting and that usually the only thing it causes is foot pain. I've also read a lot of contradicting information on the use of wraps, makeshift foam padding, etc. Oddly enough, I've never experienced foot pain from my issue; just knee pain. This has caused me to wonder if my problem isn't really related to something else like a weak ankle that's rolling my entire foot inward in spite of any insoles. So, after all of that, I come here looking for recommendations. Do you have any knowledge of a lifting shoe with inner supports, that possibly also supports the ankle? Would overpronation exercises usually intended for runners be helpful for me, or would the extra weight during lifting make them irrelevant? Do you think I should search for a doctor who can see the value in lifting?
Pretty much, I'm willing to try anything to fix this problem since I'd like to be able to continue lifting and because even an extra-shoe method would perhaps allow me to wear something other than running shoes and sandals for the rest of my life. I'm not sure how much you know about overpronation and my type of problem, but I'd much rather ask you than some dubious CrossFit forums. Thanks for any help you, or other readers, can offer.
Respectfully,
James
TMPHBITEU
Stand with your feet overpronated (your normal stance) and then supinate them for a set of 20. What do you feel? Be very specific.
Member
this is a strange conclusion to come to. The ankle's position is going to certainly effect the knee joint, both of which are essential to good mechanics in a squat, therefore making good ankle and knee position absolutely relevant to lifting. A simple test (such as Rip's exercise he told you to do) will tell you. When you stand in your normal stance and supinate your feet, do you not feel a difference in tensions at your knee joint? if you don't something is very wrong.Originally Posted by jdh
Member
A set of 20 didn't actually make me feel anything, so I did three sets. Started feeling something during the second set and did the third just to make sure. Supinating my feet didn't really create any sensation, but returning to pronation controllably created a feeling of tension slightly below and ahead of the ankle bone (for lack of the scientific name). This sensation lasted for a couple of minutes afterwards. I wouldn't say the tension was painful, and my knee wasn't affected at all (I imagine because I was standing still).
That's about as specific as I can be for how little I felt.
My best approximation of where the tension was: http://i.imgur.com/ivsDr.jpg
Member
I have very, very flat feet such that I wear an orthotic in my dress shoes and wear sneakers with built in support (Brooks Addiction, thanks).
In my lifting shoes I use a very hard plastic orthotic made by SuperFeet. It's an off the shelf orthotic that'll cost you about $15.00.
Your feet and knees will love you for it.
Member
I'm a 57 yo with EXTREME pronation on both feet. I lift in Chucks and lifting has done nothing but improve my overall lower body aches and pains. Two things I've done that may help. A) If you've got health insurance or enough $$, see a podiatrist and get yourself fitted for some prescription orthotics (inserts), and B) Add seated calf raises as an accessory exercise to strengthen your soleus (solei?). Strengthening your calves doesn't help your knees directly, but more than one PT has recommended this to me as a good way to compensate for excessive pronation. It has helped me quite a bit. And if your PT tells you to quit lifting, find a new PT.
TMPHBITEU
That's what I thought would happen. So, here's my recommendation:
1. Get some actual weightlifting shoes. The Rogue shoes are fine.
2. Get some hard orthotics. Use them in the shoes when you train.
3. When you squat, make your primary task the maintenance of the supinated position. If you do this, the tibialis posterior and other muscles that are responsible for holding your feet neutral will get stronger as they do their job under your direction, and your knees will be protected during the squat. The calf raises suggested by phalzee would help for this reason -- they make the tibialis muscles work. But they are not going to teach you what to do when you squat. You only learn that under the bar.
Member
1. Do the Rogue ( http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-we...ing-shoes.php# ) shoes offer any particular advantage over the Adidas ones? Are you recommending them because of the extra strap?
2. The green SuperFeet orthotics have been the hardest that I've come across. Are there any brands known for being harder / would it be wise to try and get a custom orthotic made in a stiffer material?
3. I have ordered the shoes anyway. I will attempt to lift once they arrive, dropping some weight so I can focus on supination. I will post an update once I am able to try it out.
If it's the green one, I already use it. I have tried to find an orthotic from them specifically for weightlifting, but I don't believe they have one.
Member
It's not the green one. That's wayyy to squishy to be of any value. The one I'm referring to is black. Hard. Plastic. They're designed to be used in dress shoes (which I also need support when I'm wearing).
Here's a link: http://www.superfeet.com/products/Men_s_3_4.aspx
We sell them in my office for $20, so don't get hosed paying more.
Member
I'll pick up a pair of those too, thanks. A couple of features like the non-slip texture seem like they could also help for lifting. Does the fact that it's slimmer require you to leave the original insole in your lifting shoes, or do you lift with only the black insert?
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