Clarification on Breath

[Mark Rippetoe]

Rip - is there something you are not telling me? Are you my master now?

MJY is apparently a new guy on the board who comes here to display his rugged individualism by expressing his disdain for nutswinging.

[MightyJoeYoung]

I was incorrect on my belief that the internal intercostals were involved in inspiration. At least, I was incorrect of which degree they were involved (notice the quote read 'for the most part'). It is the external intercostals that CONTRACT and pull the ribs up and out. It also doesnt change the fact that intercostals are involved in ventilation which is something Rip was incorrect about. We can all admit to being wrong. Dont know if Rip has, but I assume so.

I'm not that new. I've been around long enough to know you have a disciple like following in that they very well may take everything you say as fact. Dont even understand what you mean by the last bit Mark. I didn't comment for some kind of gratification, I commented for clarification.

[Stanimal5]

Ditto to what Spar described. I was taught that pronounced or visible intercostal retractions and use of accessory muscles during breathing was something you use to assess breathing issues. I don't think it's the norm and should be more difficult to do than not. When I did a stint on a labor and delivery floor of a big inner city hospital here in Atlanta, they taught all the mothers to use valsalva during contractions to safely and effectively deliver the baby. If the average person can learn and correctly perform it while giving birth, I think anyone could do it during a squat.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I was incorrect on my belief that the internal intercostals were involved in inspiration. At least, I was incorrect of which degree they were involved (notice the quote read 'for the most part'). It is the external intercostals that CONTRACT and pull the ribs up and out. It also doesnt change the fact that intercostals are involved in ventilation which is something Rip was incorrect about. We can all admit to being wrong. Dont know if Rip has, but I assume so.

You don't need to assume, MJY. Just use the fucking search function and you'll see that I have.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

You don't need to assume, MJY. Just use the fucking search function and you'll see that I have.

He assumes much. People who assume much don't use the search function.

[TXYM]

Actually, part of the internal intercostals help with inspiration: the intercartilaginous part.

To sum it all up,

Muscle used in inspiration:
-resting inspiration: diaphragm (increase longitudinal dimension of chest and elevate lower ribs), external intercostals, intercartilagious part of internal intercostals (elevates upper ribs);
-forced inspiration: all of the muscle above, scalene anterior/middle/posterior and sternocleidomastoid (elevate sternum and upper ribs).

Muscle used in expiration:
-resting expiration: no muscle involved, results form passive recoil of lungs
-forced expiration: intercostal part of internal intercostals (depress ribs), abdominal muscles (depress lower ribs, compress abdominal contants)

Source:Vanders physiology 12edition

[TheMo]

To the singer: As a singer breathe to puff your chest out. If you puff your belly out like we do while singing you are going to get destroyed when you are squatting deep one day. It just doesn't make sense for the purpose of lifting

To Rip and all the breathing debaters: Rip is correct in the sense that the diaphragm is the main muscle involved with inspiration, the others are accessory used during forced inspiration and when someone is suffering from a pulm condition like say COPD. At the end of the day for the purposes of lifting Rip has it right, the rest is just nitpicking.

[tnumrych]

To Rip and all the breathing debaters: Rip is correct in the sense that the diaphragm is the main muscle involved with inspiration, the others are accessory used during forced inspiration and when someone is suffering from a pulm condition like say COPD. At the end of the day for the purposes of lifting Rip has it right, the rest is just nitpicking.

While I agree that that the diaphragm is the primary muscle contributing to inspiration (60-70% of the volume increase, with the remainder 20-30% being the external intercostals, according to my medical texts). But I will say that its not totally nitpicking, and that it happens in more than just pulmonary conditions like COPD. Exertion level plays a big part, and since lifting is exertion, there will be situations where the external intercostals come into play, say a 20 rep squat, or the last sets on the volume day of TM. You know, where you exert yourself and require more O2.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

My favorite part of this thread is:
Right after telling the OP to stop over thinking breathing. A heated debate about the bio-mechanics of breathing erupts.

There's a difference between what is an appropriate level of examination of a phenomenon while discussing things on a forum vs. during a set of squats.

I personally enjoyed this discussion and learned from it, and it made me think about stuff I hadn't really considered before. That's one of the things that a discussion forum is meant to do, really.

But if I had been thinking about these things in the middle of squatting, it would have been a really shitty and possibly dangerous set.