Reasons for heavy snatch & C&J - something weird? + Acceleration questions.

[TalEphrat]

Hello Rip,
1. I ran into Milko Tokola's youtube channel. Here are some snatches and C&J of him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Dl1o9fIz0

And here are heavy squats of him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whk6gPCzeCM

He looks amazingly fast. But his WL level is quite far from being top level. Assuming the weights on the bar are true, he is also very strong. 240kg for a double HB squat are very impressive for an 84kg athlete.
From these videos I assume he is: A. Strong approximately like the top 85kg category competitors. B. His abillity to accelerate his force production is one hell of a good one. Again, approximately good as the top 85kg category competitors.

About his technique - I have no idea, because I don't know enough about the olympic lifts. But since he is professional, I guess he got good technique. Just guessing.


So, why isn't he even close to the top 85kg category competitors? and the bottom line, he's quite far from the top olympic level.
Did I assume wrong things, or is there something I don't know?

2. You said that a good test for accelerating force production potential is the vertical jump. Does it say anything about strength potential? I mean, if someone is naturally more explosive, does it mean he has a better potential for squat, deadlift, press, bench press?

3. About 1RM bar speed. I watched a lot of 1RMs of diferrent lifters in the squat and the deadlift. As I could guess, there was diferrence in the bar speed between the diferrent lifters. Nothing new. But, if someones' squat 1RM moves up fast compared to someone else, does it mean he's more explosive, and would we expect his vertical jump to be better?
Why someone's bar goes up fast in the squat / deadlift / etc in maximal weights and someone else's goes up slow?

Thanks for your time.

[Mark Rippetoe]

1. So, why isn't he even close to the top 85kg category competitors? and the bottom line, he's quite far from the top olympic level.

First, 525 squat at 185 is not a shitty squat at all, but it's far from actually strong. My sometime lifter Tom Feild can do that. How much can the kid pull? Press? This is relevant for a strength assessment too. Second, I don't know how long he's been in the sport. My guess is that he needs to be lifting at 94, and that he needs more food and less caffeine. There are several things that both you and I don't know.

2. You said that a good test for accelerating force production potential is the vertical jump. Does it say anything about strength potential? I mean, if someone is naturally more explosive, does it mean he has a better potential for squat, deadlift, press, bench press?

Not necessarily. Lots of very strong men have lacked explosivity, and lots of explosive athletes have failed to develop a lot of strength. In the first case, you don't have to be explosive to get strong. But in the second, getting strong is always harder than just being explosive, since you're born that way.

3. About 1RM bar speed. I watched a lot of 1RMs of diferrent lifters in the squat and the deadlift. As I could guess, there was diferrence in the bar speed between the diferrent lifters. Nothing new. But, if someones' squat 1RM moves up fast compared to someone else, does it mean he's more explosive, and would we expect his vertical jump to be better?
Why someone's bar goes up fast in the squat / deadlift / etc in maximal weights and someone else's goes up slow?

If you see an explosive fast "1RM", it's not a 1RM, because if you can move a weight fast you can move more weight slower. If a guy can't move more weight slower, he has not learned the skill of grinding through a slow, heavy rep. This is a SKILL that boys who are taught to dump their high-bar squats will not have a chance to learn.

[First Class]

Not necessarily. Lots of very strong men have lacked explosivity, and lots of explosive athletes have failed to develop a lot of strength. In the first case, you don't have to be explosive to get strong. But in the second, getting strong is always harder than just being explosive, since you're born that way.

Mark, I almost entirely agree with your remarks, but I'm not certain I understand you correctly. Are you asserting that power is not trainable and purely genetic?

I presume you don't mean this, because you already state that increasing maximal force production enables improvement in RFD so I'm most likely misunderstanding.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Most likely, yes.

[Markku]

You can find some stats for Tokola here:

http://www.allthingsgym.com/2012/11/...tions-answers/

So I guess he's pretty explosive naturally. I read his interview in a local newspaper which said that his testosterone levels are exceptionally high, beard started growing ridiculously early etc. He's still young too, so he might have the potential. Finland's hopes in (summer) olympics have lately been basically in javelin and some even more marginal sports. I hope Tokola is going to be the exception.

The finnish weightlifting union started a campaign about 13 years ago to reinvoke the old barbell schools for kids. Called old lifters to help and trained 200 new weightlifting coaches. Since then they have doubled the amount of new competitive lifters. Athletes from other sports, like hockey and martial arts are also being sent to these barbell schools to learn the basics of strength training. I don't know if Tokola is a product of that campaign, though.

[First Class]

Okay. This still leaves me confused as to your statement, but it is inconsequential.

These weightlifters certainly know how to grind through a lift. I'm afraid my friend Clarence Kennedy must work harder.

[First Class]

I should clarify. Their power and technique enables them to grind through a lift, because weightlifters generally don't perform high enough rep work (4-6) to sufficiently flatten their force curve enough to develop the ability to actually grind through a lift.

[TalEphrat]

First, 525 squat at 185 is not a shitty squat at all, but it's far from actually strong. My sometime lifter Tom Feild can do that. How much can the kid pull? Press? This is relevant for a strength assessment too. Second, I don't know how long he's been in the sport. My guess is that he needs to be lifting at 94, and that he needs more food and less caffeine. There are several things that both you and I don't know.

I meant that he is quite far from the olympic level at olympic weightlifting, not at the squat level.
His best lifts were 140kg snatch and 175kg C&J, which would place him #16 at London 2012 olympics. I used his squat to show the weird thing in it - that he is strong like the top olympians in his category, probably has explosivity at least like they have, but still lift much less than the top olympians in the olympic lifts. What does a gold medalist have that he doesen't? why does the gold medalist lift 70kg (!) more in total?
But what you said is interesting. Why do you think he can be better at 94kg category? (he will probably lift heavier - but his competitors will be stronger also...)

If you see an explosive fast "1RM", it's not a 1RM, because if you can move a weight fast you can move more weight slower. If a guy can't move more weight slower, he has not learned the skill of grinding through a slow, heavy rep. This is a SKILL that boys who are taught to dump their high-bar squats will not have a chance to learn.

Do you suggest that Andy Bolton could deadlift heavier that day?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN4QSP8EEPs

The bar didn't came up fast and explosively, but it wasn't a slow rep...


Thank you very much!

[Mark Rippetoe]

Okay. This still leaves me confused as to your statement, but it is inconsequential.

These weightlifters certainly know how to grind through a lift. I'm afraid my friend Clarence Kennedy must work harder.

Yes, some know how to grind through a lift, even if they don't know how to squat correctly. But that is beside the point. Power and technique are different quantities than 1RM STRENGTH. Familiarize yourself with the definitions of these words.

What does a gold medalist have that he doesen't? why does the gold medalist lift 70kg (!) more in total?

The gold medalist is stronger, you fool. The gold medalist squats more than he does, which enables him to apply more force to the bar in the 2 lifts.

But what you said is interesting. Why do you think he can be better at 94kg category? (he will probably lift heavier - but his competitors will be stronger also...)

Because he's taller than an 85 should be.

Do you suggest that Andy Bolton could deadlift heavier that day?

Of course. He had at least another 3-4 kg. Look at the deadlift again, you fool. This is not a limit attempt. Have you ever seen a limit deadlift? Probably not, because you sound like an modern Olympic weightlifter.

This Olympic weightlifting shit really shakes out the annoying motherfuckers, doesn't it?

[stejor]

Just as a comparison to an actually strong weightlifter in the same class (although he's still not terribly impressive by international standards), here's Kendrick Farris squatting 243kg x 10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRP54h6F9LI), and 273kg x 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoYy3M8Tefs).