A more specific aging question

[SClark08]

Rip,

I've read through all of the age related posts as well as the special populations section (Ch. 9) of PPST (Ed 2 & 3). The particular question I'm investigating hasn't been quantified (much if at all) here or on other blogs. That is, what does a lifetime performance curve look like in barbell trained individuals? And, can it be used to predict or program for aging?

Have you tracked your peak performance across your (or any of your clients') entire training career? I'd be curious to see what the trend line looks like. Provided that you have only trained with barbells for strength training (versus any of the body building or cross fit nonsense), your career would be a great one to learn from.

My performance in the primary lifts are approaching what yours were at your peak of "about 12 years or so"; I'm at 220, 26 years old, and have squatted 600 for a single (in light knee wraps), benched 380 in a t-shirt and deadlifted 610 (without equipment) after 10 years of solid training (training log: Samuel Clark, Intermediate Training Log ).

With the interest in planning for a lifelong training career, I'm curious to see what the graph of someone who has journeyed to (or near) their genetic potential and started the decent. This would provide great data points for planning ballpark figures as time passes (i.e. you can expect to lose x% of peak force production/year or pound of age related weight-loss, etc.).

Moreover, I have been to numerous meets where I have met some of the kindest people (IMO) on the planet. They were all masters lifters. I am assuming many of them had picked up the sport fairly recently, therefore they could train as novices, however, I'm curious about those who had been training and competing for decades (much like yourself). How do they program their competition cycles? Do they use training devices akin to Auto-regulation (strongly espoused by Mike Tuchscherer - reactive training systems)? I can only assume provided that percentage based training tends to become unreliable under their circumstances.

[Mark Rippetoe]

That is, what does a lifetime performance curve look like in barbell trained individuals? And, can it be used to predict or program for aging?

The curve falls off after a period of time, depending on the thousands of individual variables in the trainee's history. Any advanced lifter experiences a terminal plateau, and this is almost always the result of injury. Subsequent declines in the strength curve are dependent on injury and the nature of the aging human body. Prediction based on percentages is fantasy, since injuries cannot be predicted. In short, you can't plan everything. This will become more apparent to you as you age.

[Mark E. Hurling]

I am bumping up against my limitations as a result of age at 65. Mainly because I never learned to lift and program and train properly decades before. Which Rip, stef, Ryan, Julie, and Steve fixed for me a few years ago at age 62. I may have lost 10-30 lbs. on the big three lifts in the last 2 years, perhaps from age and perhaps from the wrong programming. But then I use my best attempts in competition as my benchmarks. I can't say I am happy about it, but I am trying to fight back to my earlier lifts (from 2012) through different programming.

My recommendation to you is to take a look at qualifying totals for National and World competitions and see how they drop based on age and weight class. As a small plug for the USPA, who introduced a drug tested division this year, compare those qualifying totals as well if you don't resort to TRT or some other PED's to boost your lifts or your quality of life. You may find some relative solace for what is inevitable, no matter how hard you struggle against it.

Bonne chance.

[SClark08]

Mr. Hurling, that is a great idea (I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it). Averaging the masters lifters at the upper levels under drug tested conditions would provide some good data points for building a general trend. The only disadvantage would be (as Rip mentioned) the thousands of intricate details that separate everyone (i.e., height, leverages, injuries, etc.).

Looking ahead, I know I'm going to struggle personally with competition tapers that result in great training PRs and potentially missed attempts on the platform. Albeit, this is decades out for me, its still an unfortunate eventuality. Still, its better to fail having made the attempt than to not have tried at all.

[Mark Rippetoe]

A better approach might be to just train, and adjust your training according to current conditions, instead of planning for what will most assuredly not happen the way you planned.

[Tiedemies]

If I may make some conjectures and draw conclusions. It may be that my conjectures are wrong and hence the conclusions accordingly. But here goes.

0) there is an individual "potential" for how much we could lift given ideal training, rest, and nutrition.
1) as we age, our potential diminishes.
2) injuries are not 100% recovered from, and the older we get the less perfect the recovery tends to be. These injuries therefore also cause the potential to diminish.
3) the closer to the potential we operate, the higher the risk of injury

This leads me to conclude that at some point, when the athlete feels he has reached his potential, injury prevention becomes more important in prolonging the lifting career. This would mean that the programming might be adjusted in a way that sacrifices some of the gains for safety. The same might hold for the less advanced lifter who is middle-aged or approaching and mostly interested in having a longer lifting career ahead of them.

For example, a young intermediate lifter who aims to be compete would program in order to maximize the biggest lift he is going to lift in his career. He may rationally take risks more than the older lifter, who wants to maximize something like the weight they can lift when they are 75.

I have no idea if and how this translates to programming but could be something like, more conservative progression when older, to reduce the probability of injuries. Less emphasis on 1RM lifts, perhaps? Less volume to prevent overuse injuries?

Play by ear is probably a good advice but maybe there are some nuances depending on what goal is set.

[Dave_G]

Mr. Hurling, that is a great idea (I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it). Averaging the masters lifters at the upper levels under drug tested conditions would provide some good data points for building a general trend. The only disadvantage would be (as Rip mentioned) the thousands of intricate details that separate everyone (i.e., height, leverages, injuries, etc.).

Looking ahead, I know I'm going to struggle personally with competition tapers that result in great training PRs and potentially missed attempts on the platform. Albeit, this is decades out for me, its still an unfortunate eventuality. Still, its better to fail having made the attempt than to not have tried at all.

At 56, I don't consider myself old, but I'm not young either. I have seen some of my numbers go down slightly in the last three years, but I can tell you this - a good training session still makes me feel great, and strong, in spite of the fact that some of the numbers may not be as high as they were a few years ago. Working to capacity makes me feel as good now as it ever did, and I suspect that pulling 225 at age 80 (hopefully) will still feel as great as pulling 405 does today.

[SClark08]

At 56, I don't consider myself old, but I'm not young either. I have seen some of my numbers go down slightly in the last three years, but I can tell you this - a good training session still makes me feel great, and strong, in spite of the fact that some of the numbers may not be as high as they were a few years ago. Working to capacity makes me feel as good now as it ever did, and I suspect that pulling 225 at age 80 (hopefully) will still feel as great as pulling 405 does today.

How do you plan your training sessions? If lifts go down, a linear progression will deliver false positives when you start missing reps (meaning its not that recovery ISN'T happening, its that your strength is actually regressing). Do you work up to a daily max and then base some percentages off of that?

[Dave_G]

How do you plan your training sessions? If lifts go down, a linear progression will deliver false positives when you start missing reps (meaning its not that recovery ISN'T happening, its that your strength is actually regressing). Do you work up to a daily max and then base some percentages off of that?

I haven't done LP for quite a while. I have worked with both Andy Baker and Jordan Feigenbaum in the past and really learned from both of them. I have found that as I age, digging too far into my ability to recover is the worst thing I can do, so I base my programming around doing as much as I can while still feeling like I am recovering ok. (trends in strength, sleep patterns, appetite, libido, and mood can all be used as indicators of recovery.) I have learned over time when I am moving into overtraining or just being a pussy.

As for what I do now, I cycle my weights over 4 week periods with the first week at about 75% 1RM and ending around 90% to 95% the last week. At that time I will simply restart the following week with 10 pound increases for squats and deads, and 5 pounds for bench and press. If I feeel real strong in the 4th week, I determine my new 1RM's and recalculate my precentages for the next cycle. This works well for me, and the 75% range week allows me to work hard on form and recover well from the previous week.

This is what works for me, but I have arrived here by trial and error and experience. I assume you have run LP to its limit and it no longer works for you. If you haven't done that, you should, otherwise YNDTFP.

Regards

[SClark08]

I have learned over time when I am moving into overtraining or just being a pussy.

As for what I do now, I cycle my weights over 4 week periods with the first week at about 75% 1RM and ending around 90% to 95% the last week. At that time I will simply restart the following week with 10 pound increases for squats and deads, and 5 pounds for bench and press. If I feeel real strong in the 4th week, I determine my new 1RM's and recalculate my precentages for the next cycle. This works well for me, and the 75% range week allows me to work hard on form and recover well from the previous week.

I assume you have run LP to its limit and it no longer works for you. If you haven't done that, you should, otherwise YNDTFP.

Regards

I'm much the same - a lot of the time it comes down to going to work despite how crappy I feel (video works wonders for me). I started without the traditional LP... I ran cross country as a kid and just put weights on the bar and lifted what the other kids in class were doing. Somehow I exited high school at 185-190 pounds and squatting the low to mid 300's.

In my logs I'm a repeat offender of the Texas method - its pretty much the only style of program I've run in the past 6 years. Kind of like your 4 week cycle - Bill Starr in "Fit" has a Heavy-Light-Medium that can be stretched from a single week micro-cycle to each week emphasizing one of the three schemes.

I appreciate your input; I'm at least a couple of decades from needing this advanced programming, however, as with everything, I'm curious (fitting that I'm an engineer).