Strength & Conditioning

[Nathanael Teeple]

Rip,

I listened to your podcast "Strength & Conditioning - Conditioning & Strength" and I have a few questions. You make the argument that strength is always more practical than endurance for someone who has neither - a novice, which I agree with. Yet, though not explicitly stated, it seems as though you would argue this is true for people who aren't novices as well (I could be wrong in this assumption). Obviously it depends on the persons sport/activity/personal preference, and you argue that marathon running is so specialized that it doesn't really fit in with normal circumstances, but in general, strength trumps conditioning.

Now to the question: I read (from here: WHY RUNNING PERFORMANCE CAN PREDICT YOUR HELL WEEK SUCCESS | SEALSWCC.COM) that there is a direct correlation between a Navy SEAL's running ability and their likelihood to avoid injury and/or pass selection (BUD/S). In fact, the deadlift is shows the smallest correlation to success. Do you think that this is because BUD/S is so specific (like marathons) that this is true, or do you think running/cardio should be an integral part of someones routine if they're looking for a well rounded "functional" fitness? (I use that term not in reference to the exercise method, but for people who clearly have an extreme physical ability in many areas).

Thanks!
nteeps

P.S. I just finished reading SSBBT3 and thoroughly enjoyed it. I did my first session yesterday, and I'm very excited to keep going!

[Mark Rippetoe]

I think that if you test specifically for endurance, those best at endurance will score higher on the test. My thoughts on your second question are answered in the article you just read, and here: Are you Strong Enough? An interview with Mark Rippetoe - | @TheRhinoDen | Home Of All Things Military

and here: Why Does the Army Want Me Weak?

[Nathanael Teeple]

Very interesting! Thanks for posting those. I have to admit it feels counterintuitive - my default is to assume the military knows how to build good soldiers, but hearing combat veterans agree so whole heartedly makes me question that method for sure. I'd be interested to know if this wisdom changes significantly in a SOF environment, and see if I can find some people who argue for the cardio side of things. Either way, I agree that cardio without strength isn't much use.

Thanks for the reply.

[Mark Rippetoe]

my default is to assume the military knows how to build good soldiers,

Is your default to believe that The Government builds good anythings? Who is the military?

[MarinePMI]

I would add (bear in mind my experience is 30+ years ago), that the selection process that emphasizes endurance, is not testing for endurance, per se, but for will. The SOF community has exploded in size since I went through indocs, so I have been told by (now retired) friends in the community it has affected the entrance requirements somewhat but that they still have the same focus.

Endurance activities are used in the selection process, not because it (endurance) is somehow perceived as superior to baseline strength, but because it is the easiest way to strip away baseline strength and gain a view into that persons will power; the ability to push yourself to failure, and continue to come back with whatever you have left and continue the fight. Yes, there is a threshold of physical strength that is needed for selection, but at its core, indocs/BUDS/whatever Army and USAF use, is geared towards selecting individuals that can handle the physical intensity AND have the mental toughness to aggressively continue. Those that can handle the stress of constant failure, fatigue, sleep deprivation and still maintain a level of mental acuity and resolve to keep moving forward.

I saw one guy who had passed indocs 4 times and was never selected for Force, while one guy who barely made it through physically, was asked to join at the end of hell week. That guy failed constantly, but never quit getting back up. The guy who passed four times, never once used his physical advantage to help others get through hell week, and held his reserve to keep from being pushed to the point of failure.

Just like getting under a bar with an intimidating amount of weight (and the mental toughness and aggressiveness to continue to do so, week after week), the entrance tests are not really testing endurance but mental resolve. As one Force Recon buddy said to me (and he was in no way a stellar athlete before going Force), "We can make you stronger, but we can't really make you more mentally committed to overcome tough shit when things turn into a fur ball."

This is where (I feel) barbell training is very similar (in some ways) to some of the SOF entrance testing. It isn't about how much weight you can lift/push/pull now; it's about 'do you have the will power to continue to do this when sore, physically tired, mentally and emotionally depleted?'. Can you still maintain your form while exhausted? When cortisol levels are high, and you can't think clearly (and have to focus very intently on the task at hand), can you continue to perform? Are you willing to add more weight, even when you know its going to suck worse than before? Can you tell yourself (and convince yourself) that you're going to move that f'ing bar five more times, even when you know you're gassed, and then do it?

I would argue the correlation of running and BUD/S success, is merely a sign that those who are already genetically good at what the test uses as the means to test OTHER aspects of a person's abilities, have a higher degree of success. That doesn't mean that a person will succeed though, just because they can run better than most. It just means they'll last a bit longer until being pushed over the edge where physical prowess no longer is a factor, and raw will power, grit and resolve are laid bare for all to see. These same individuals will likely recover more quickly, and be in a better position (mentally and physically) for the next event in the selection process, which obviously is an advantage over those that do not. But again, that doesn't mean they will handle drowning in a pool any better than someone less physically adapted to faster recovery/high endurance. (As the saying when back then "You will drown, at least once, during hell week".)

[Mark Rippetoe]

I would argue the correlation of running and BUD/S success, is merely a sign that those who are already genetically good at what the test uses as the means to test OTHER aspects of a person's abilities, have a higher degree of success. That doesn't mean that a person will succeed though, just because they can run better than most. It just means they'll last a bit longer until being pushed over the edge where physical prowess no longer is a factor, and raw will power, grit and resolve are laid bare for all to see.

Excellent post. I understand that this endurance-based wash-out process works in the way they want it to. It's too bad that it can't be improved based upon what we know about combat in 2017. That's the government-like feature, shit that cannot and will not be changed despite the fact that it should.

[Nathanael Teeple]

Haha. Well, call me an optimist. They definitely make better pilots than anyone else!

[Mark Rippetoe]

They certainly make more pilots than anyone else. They own a lot of planes.

[Nathanael Teeple]

Pardon my previous post - these two replies hadn't appeared yet.

I would add (bear in mind my experience is 30+ years ago), that the selection process that emphasizes endurance, is not testing for endurance, per se, but for will.

I definitely would agree with this, and that's a great way of phrasing it. It makes sense that the more you can rely on your strength/conditioning, the less you have to rely on your will, but regardless of your ability they'll find your breaking point. Thanks for sharing that.

[blues]

Haha. Well, call me an optimist. They definitely make better pilots than anyone else!

They certainly make more pilots than anyone else. They own a lot of planes.

When I worked with our air smuggling unit, which was located on an Air Force base in South FL, the vast majority of our fixed wing and rotor pilots were former Marines. Crazy SOBs but I loved flying with 'em.