Eccentric vs Concentric Stress/Recovery/Adaptation

[mousemeat]

Having listened to the barbell logic podcast with Steve Hill (which is a fantastic resource for someone interested in both cycling and strength training) a couple of times has made me wonder something. He said that cyclists that are new to strength training are unaccustomed to eccentric loads and he has to accommodate this at first when he introduces the barbell by starting very slowly. Now then, at the other end of the training cycle, the athlete in question is strong but getting even stronger is competing with sport specific training/practice for time and recovery resources. At this point, is there any sense in considering the eccentric/concentric split of the training in relation to the eccentric/concentric ratio of the sport?

I understand that we don’t try to make the lifts look like the sport we are competing in. I also understand that we don’t increase the reps because we are in an endurance sport. But if the sport has a negligible eccentric component (cycling/rowing/climbing) should we try to eliminate the eccentric part of the lift because we don’t care about eccentric displays of force production and the required adaptations thereof? Or perhaps because the eccentric part of the lift is a stress (and reportedly the main source of soreness) that we don’t want to waste limited recovery resources on?

For the deadlift this is a practical consideration (we can just drop the bar on each rep if the eccentric portion isn’t worth the stress) while i admit this is a bit more of a theoretical consideration on the squat as the stretch/rebound at the bottom is part of the lift and eliminating the eccentric would require a team of hands-on spotters helping you down (or some equivalent contraption).

I would be very interested in anyone’s thoughts on this. I must say this is not particularly applicable to me just yet, as I have plenty of room for improvement in both strength and cycling performance.

TL;DR: How independent are are the stress/recovery/adaptation cycles for eccentric vs concentric loaded movements?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Do you know of a better way to get strong than by using the plain old reliable below-parallel squat? The one that happens to have an eccentric component?

[mousemeat]

I sure don’t, and the low bar back squat has served me well. I am living proof that getting stronger is the best thing you can do, even for endurance sports. Over two years, I have got my squat to 360x2 and my bodyweight to 190, starting at a bodyweight of 157 at 6’2”, 38yo. In April, when I got on a bike after 18 years of not riding, I could instantly tell that I was a far better (or at least more powerful) cyclist than I was when I was 21 and rode bikes all the time. I can’t overstate how much barbell training has improved me in all other ways as well.

However, I aim to be competitive in cyclocross, at least at the amateur, over-40, local level. The season is mercifully short, with 40 minute races each weekend from mid-september to mid-january, which leaves the first half of the year to mostly focus on strength. From my new base of strength, I have been ramping up the cycling and so far this has not impacted my strength, but I expect a compromise will be required down the road.

So there is a certain amount of self-interest in knowing if there is any sense to limiting the eccentric load where possible, as this is what supposedly generates soreness, and soreness is not an indication of effective training. But mostly this is a theoretical question. We always want the maximum level of adaptation for the minimum level of stress given a finite amount of recovery resources. How closely coupled are the eccentric and concentric cycles of stress/recovery/adaptation?

A wise man once said, in relation to the deadlift: ‘Setting the bar down slowly uses up too much gas that could be better used in picking up your next rep.’ From this I am tempted to infer that the adaptation:stress ratio is more favourable for the concentric action and I don’t understand why this would be different (in theory at least) for the squat, if squatting is the means rather than the end.

[AndrewLewis]

This is not really particularly applicable to anyone.

You can speed up the descent on the squat to reduce eccentric loading, but at a certain point, you're going to sacrifice descent speed for technique. Same as the press and bench.
Now, if someone has good technique, and they're descending slowly, I might tell them to speed it up. How much does that matter for recovery? I don't know - probably not a lot. I tell them to speed it up a little, because 1) it's not necessary and 2) it's fatiguing.

Also, incorporating the eccentric component also allows you to use the stretch reflex, which is desirable.

[samking7185]

For the deadlift this is a practical consideration (we can just drop the bar on each rep if the eccentric portion isn’t worth the stress)

This is exactly what this guy uses. All his "scientific" work has been done under the umbrella of a private business though, so I don't think any of the "research" he references has been reviewed or published.

How a Top-Flight Trainer Discovered the Most Important Exercise Every Athlete Should Do

[Mark Rippetoe]

So there is a certain amount of self-interest in knowing if there is any sense to limiting the eccentric load where possible, as this is what supposedly generates soreness, and soreness is not an indication of effective training. But mostly this is a theoretical question. We always want the maximum level of adaptation for the minimum level of stress given a finite amount of recovery resources. How closely coupled are the eccentric and concentric cycles of stress/recovery/adaptation?

If you get strong using a movement that combines eccentric and concentric, you adapt to both. You have noticed that you don't get very sore from squats, right? You have adapted to the eccentric component. But you are losing sight of the point: strength. What is the best way to get strong? And then, what is the best way to apply that general strength to the specific task?

A wise man once said, in relation to the deadlift: ‘Setting the bar down slowly uses up too much gas that could be better used in picking up your next rep.’ From this I am tempted to infer that the adaptation:stress ratio is more favourable for the concentric action and I don’t understand why this would be different (in theory at least) for the squat, if squatting is the means rather than the end.

The eccentric component of the squat is one of the reasons that the deadlift is not the primary exercise for strength. The stretch reflex, as Andrew observes, is desirable in that it allows us to lift heavier weights, and thus get stronger.

This is exactly what this guy uses. All his "scientific" work has been done under the umbrella of a private business though, so I don't think any of the "research" he references has been reviewed or published.

How a Top-Flight Trainer Discovered the Most Important Exercise Every Athlete Should Do

ANYTHING to look different/technical/valuable to stupid people, who are usually unable to differentiate between "new" and effective. And ANYTHING to keep from having to learn how to actually coach strength.

[samking7185]

Skeletal Muscle Remodeling in Response to Eccentric vs. Concentric Loading: Morphological, Molecular, and Metabolic Adaptations

"this has prompted researchers to postulate that ECC RT could lead to higher hypertrophic responses: nevertheless, as showed in Section The Contribution of Chronic Concentric vs. Eccentric Loading to Muscle Hypertrophy of the present review, even at high training intensities, many studies cannot clearly affirm which training mode results in greater long-term hypertrophy."

There ya go

[Erik Y]

How a Top-Flight Trainer Discovered the Most Important Exercise Every Athlete Should Do

Anybody notice this sentence from the article?

Unlike a traditional straight-bar deadlift, a lift using the uniquely shaped hex-bar takes pressure off the lifter’s spine, lower back, and hamstrings.

Suddenly I understand why there’s a physics lecture at the seminar.

Also, I remember seeing on another thread that dropping the weight at the end of a high-intensity set of deadlifts is one of the most surefire ways to pass out in the gym. I’m sure someone could adapt to this over time, but since even a maximally controlled eccentric of heavy deadlifts comes down pretty fast, I doubt it would make much of a difference to recovery. Even if it did, not really worth the risk of passing out and hitting your head.

[m_sporkboy]

> Unlike a traditional straight-bar deadlift, a lift using the uniquely shaped hex-bar takes pressure off the lifter’s spine, lower back, and hamstrings.

Heh. Wouldn't want to accidentally strengthen your lower back by putting pressure on it. That would be awful.

[Mark E. Hurling]

"this has prompted researchers to postulate that ECC RT could lead to higher hypertrophic responses: nevertheless, as showed in Section The Contribution of Chronic Concentric vs. Eccentric Loading to Muscle Hypertrophy of the present review, even at high training intensities, many studies cannot clearly affirm which training mode results in greater long-term hypertrophy."

There ya go

Arthur Jones, Mike Mentzer, and Ken Hutchins (among others) have been up and down this road since the 1960s and every-single-time, they either drove off a cliff or hit a dead end.

But then, history, and it seems the same pointless follies keep repeating themselves.