Questions from a Former Runner

[Nockian]

Running = hedonism. So what? Feeling good, is good enough, as Sgt Elias once said.

It’s an attempt to cheat reality. Reality has a habit of punching that ticket eventually. Running isn’t the worst of the addictions by a long way, probably one of the most healthy ones, but those who have had to take time off for injuries/illness/events know all about runners blues. I get annoyed when I can’t lift, but never had lifters blues.

[mpalios]

One other point I forgot to add....

I've done A LOT of long workouts (swim/bike/run), and plenty of long course races. The training for these events is brutal. Recovery from the training is tough, and recovery from the races would take me several days.

And today, I did sets of DLs. TOTAL ACTUAL LIFT TIME of the deadlifts will be 40 seconds (this doesn't include the lowering of the bar, just the pulling). Tonight, I'm going to feel like I've been run over by a train. Nearly like I felt for a 2-hour run (~13-14 mile run). I know this doesn't surprise the veteran lifters on this board. But it surprises me.

Re: hedonistic....the runner's high just ain't that much different than what I am experiencing every time I set a PR under or pulling the bar. I'd even say that it's more (for me), since there's very very very clear and obvious progress being made; it's happening much more rapidly, even while I'm in quasi-intermediate training.

[simon0596]

Had runner’s high twice, and got injured both times. Felt so good that I kept going long after I shouldn’t

[Jovan Dragisic]

It’s an attempt to cheat reality. Reality has a habit of punching that ticket eventually. Running isn’t the worst of the addictions by a long way, probably one of the most healthy ones, but those who have had to take time off for injuries/illness/events know all about runners blues. I get annoyed when I can’t lift, but never had lifters blues.

This is weirdly specific attitude. I like you, you’re hardcore

[eschab89]

Would you mind sharing what your marathon training looked like post-Starting Strength? I'm a marathon runner. I've considered taking a break from running for a few months and doing Starting Strength with the hopes of then going back to marathon training and achieving the same kind of improvements to my time that you did. I've bought the Starting Strength book, but I really can't find any resources on how to integrate both lifting and running once the linear progression is done.

I don't need your exact program (although it'd be nice if you had that), but some of the basic principles would help me out a lot. Some questions that come to mind: 1) How many days per week did you lift and how many did you run? 2) Obviously, you wouldn't be able to add weight to bar each workout anymore, how did you measure what a "good" lifting workout was, and did you stick to 3 sets of 5, or add in more lifting workouts with lower weight/higher reps? 3) Did you do any tempo/interval runs or was it all endurance work (since lifting would theoretically achieve the same goals as speed work), and how long were your "long runs"? 4) Did you stick to the four Starting Strength lifts or add/replace any of them with other types of lifts? 5) Should I expect my bodyweight at the end of marathon training to be closer to my pre- or post-Starting Strength weight or somewhere right in the middle (like you, I'd be starting out pretty thin, and "doing the program" correctly would likely require me to put on 40-50 lbs)?

I'd appreciate any help you can offer, and if there's some resource out there on this specific topic that I just haven't found yet, I'd really appreciate you sharing that.

Relapsed runner here. One point that gets missed in the “either/or” debate over lifting and running is that the interference is asymmetrical. Running lots of miles interferes with strength more than lifting weights interferes with running. I suspect that barbell lifts actually improve running performance for most recreational runners. My anecdotal experience:

At age 32 I ran a 3:23 marathon very skinny with no lifting on classic high mileage marathon training. After that race I bought SS, stopped running, did the NLP and gained 50 lbs, and continued to lift and not run until I was 37. During this time I used the advanced novice and intermediate programs in PP. I realized that I missed running and started again, but kept lifting. At age 40 I ran a marathon in 3:09 at a bodyweight that was 30 lbs more than when I was 32. All the time I continued to squat, DL, and press 1 – 3 times per week, depending on training load. Since then I have completed multiple 100 mile mountain ultramarathons. In those events strength is even more important than the shorter events because one of the biggest reasons for DNFing is leg Musculo-skeletal fatigue.

Obviously, there are tradeoffs. My lifts went down when I added running back in but most of my novice gains remain. I am a faster runner at 43 running and lifting than I was just running at 32. And I am way stronger. For most runners there is no reason not to also train with barbells. The low hanging novice gains are there for the taking – and if that is all a runner ever does – those novice gains radically improve quality of life.

[Nockian]

This is weirdly specific attitude. I like you, you’re hardcore

You might be my only friend :-)

[Frank_B]

Would you mind sharing what your marathon training looked like post-Starting Strength? I'm a marathon runner. I've considered taking a break from running for a few months and doing Starting Strength with the hopes of then going back to marathon training and achieving the same kind of improvements to my time that you did. I've bought the Starting Strength book, but I really can't find any resources on how to integrate both lifting and running once the linear progression is done.

I don't need your exact program (although it'd be nice if you had that), but some of the basic principles would help me out a lot. Some questions that come to mind: 1) How many days per week did you lift and how many did you run? 2) Obviously, you wouldn't be able to add weight to bar each workout anymore, how did you measure what a "good" lifting workout was, and did you stick to 3 sets of 5, or add in more lifting workouts with lower weight/higher reps? 3) Did you do any tempo/interval runs or was it all endurance work (since lifting would theoretically achieve the same goals as speed work), and how long were your "long runs"? 4) Did you stick to the four Starting Strength lifts or add/replace any of them with other types of lifts? 5) Should I expect my bodyweight at the end of marathon training to be closer to my pre- or post-Starting Strength weight or somewhere right in the middle (like you, I'd be starting out pretty thin, and "doing the program" correctly would likely require me to put on 40-50 lbs)?

I'd appreciate any help you can offer, and if there's some resource out there on this specific topic that I just haven't found yet, I'd really appreciate you sharing that.

For a while I fought the idea of stopping running while I did my NLP. I thought, “Well, I’ll just get my squat to 180 pounds,” which was double what I started. The problem for me was that my squat technique wasn’t awesome. So I kept adding weight AND I kept running and then I got injured such that I had to stop both. I healed and started my NLP (without running) for about 6 weeks when COVID happened. During that time, to stay sane, I ran and cycled. It took my body about a week to go back to “endurance mode,” and that’s when I realized that I could run an NLP and go back to endurance later if I wanted.

I highly suggest you do the same. Just spend 2-3 months on your NLP. Get your squat to 315. Then try and rub for a few weeks and see how you feel. I think you’ll be amazed. Oh... And get your form checked. All that running trains your body for a short range of motion.

[eschab89]

For a while I fought the idea of stopping running while I did my NLP. I thought, “Well, I’ll just get my squat to 180 pounds,” which was double what I started. The problem for me was that my squat technique wasn’t awesome. So I kept adding weight AND I kept running and then I got injured such that I had to stop both. I healed and started my NLP (without running) for about 6 weeks when COVID happened. During that time, to stay sane, I ran and cycled. It took my body about a week to go back to “endurance mode,” and that’s when I realized that I could run an NLP and go back to endurance later if I wanted.

I highly suggest you do the same. Just spend 2-3 months on your NLP. Get your squat to 315. Then try and rub for a few weeks and see how you feel. I think you’ll be amazed. Oh... And get your form checked. All that running trains your body for a short range of motion.

Thanks for the reply! I'm already open to the idea of taking a 3 month break from running to do the NLP. My concern is how to transition back to a marathon-training program after that in a way that allows me to hold on to as much of that strength training progress as I can (I understand I'll lose some). I'm certain that I could be ready for a shorter race like a 5k in just a week or two after taking time off for the NLP, but a marathon is going to require its own 3-5 month training cycle, and I'm not sure how to fit lifting into that (I don't think I can take a 3-5 month break from lifting without losing nearly all of my progress). Most resources I've found discuss how to transition to a more advanced strength-building program after Starting Strength, which makes sense, but that's not really my goal. Long-term: I'd foresee going to back to strength training after the marathon to build back up what I lost and ideally push past that, then switching back for another marathon, and continuing to alternate between the two gradually getting a little better at each as I go.