Questions from a Former Runner

[J. Killmond]

There are five exercises, but as a "novice" you do only three each workout. Really you should just buy the book and read it. You'll enjoy it!

[m s]

Could you clarify what you mean when you refer to the "negative impacts on health"? Also, I don't know what "the MED" is.

Year after year of hard training beats you up and will eventually lead to injury. The MED is the minimum effective dose. Not something a novice needs to worry about.

Here's a bit I can help with.

Around 5 minutes should be adequate for most of your lifting life. Novice to Advanced. You are not doing 5x5 in novice phase....3x5

Nah, you can't help with that, because you're wrong.

[walker100]

“Humans are not physically normal in the absence of hard physical effort.” I think we can all agree on this.

Physical effort should include running from time to time. We are running animals. Abandoning that ability, and/or failing to maintain that skill set, is a waste of our genetic inheritance. You should be able to run in order to catch a bus, or to snatch up a toddler staggering towards a swimming pool. It's embarrassing for everyone when someone who doesn't run regularly is forced to run. A 30-minute trot a couple of times a week will not destroy your gains.

[3rdcoast_slope]

Thanks, Rip. I'll be looking forward to it!


Yeah, I get that. I just like to understand things at a deeper level than most people, and while I've already been convinced by seeing the results in other people THAT it works, I want to better understand WHY it works so I can provide good answers when people ask why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Did you question running this much? Or has running made you skeptical of other programs? I was once a runner, I have marathon runners in the family, and appreciate the cardio and stamina those people have to put one foot in front of the other for so long. Strength training is much funner, brings actual results, and also helps with the mental health aspect. You don't have to worry about vehicles, weather, or if the concrete is sloped or not. Treadmills.... Strength training, esp doing the NLP is a method every human should have to go through IMO.

[old guy]

Running is largely a hedonistic form of exercise. For most people it is not a competitive sport, but a repetitive activity. The mere act of running for some amount of distance gives an endorphin high. This is the reward. Running has little value in the real world experience of existence, therefore it’s a method of gaining pleasure without gaining value.

Strength training -as opposed to body building-is the opposite of running. It’s rewards are the objective values of strength, which are directly applicable to basic existence. There is no endorphin high, there is only the day to day grind of loading up a bar with increasingly heavy weights and performing the movement. The pleasure can only be obtained by gaining the value of strength.

Were you high when you wrote this ? I am not a runner and never have been, but there is plenty of value in being “ in shape”. I was sedentary for 50 years and lifting 10. I am clearly stronger than most 60 year olds and in better overall health than most. Being strong has little practical use ( over a runners ). My friend is 64 and a runner. We moved my daughter ourselves - Lading and unloading 2 24 foot trucks - I had no discernible advantage in work capacity. Doing yard work, projects around the house etc. I don’t get fatigued but I suspect neither do they. The only advantage In real life I would have is actually lifting heavy stuff which doesn’t happen that often in real life.

Not hedonistic ? We will spend ridiculous sums of money and time on coaches , training , equipment, logging, debating, filming , etc. to squat 400 versus 350. For what purpose other than ego ?
I am not dumping on strength training but “my cult is better than your cult “ is silly thinking. I happen to prefer my cult but won’t dump on running.

[Mark Rippetoe]

“Humans are not physically normal in the absence of hard physical effort.” I think we can all agree on this.

Physical effort should include running from time to time. We are running animals. Abandoning that ability, and/or failing to maintain that skill set, is a waste of our genetic inheritance. You should be able to run in order to catch a bus, or to snatch up a toddler staggering towards a swimming pool. It's embarrassing for everyone when someone who doesn't run regularly is forced to run. A 30-minute trot a couple of times a week will not destroy your gains.

Wonderful. Another runner who thinks lifters have lost the ability to run.

[mpalios]

You're getting answers to your questions. I'd like to chime in, from the perspective of a life-long endurance athlete. I'm soon-to-be 46. I've been a runner since 9th grade.
I was good in HS, and continued to be good in road races and triathlons. Not bragging, just giving context to my comments, that's all.

I had absolutely ZERO background in real strength training. I did Body For Life, P90X, push ups/pull ups, but nothing like SS. I started the NLP, in January, then with a coach in August of 2020. Poor Pete T. I am not strong, as Mark measures it, but my progress has been steady, and every set that has called for a PR in squat and DL, has been met with success. I've gained ~25lbs (have used Robert for some guidance on this, too), and I'd say that is the side effect I enjoy the least...my waist is too large, and I don't fit into my clothes anymore. A small price to pay for what is now a 315lb DL. (I know, not strong.....)

If I had a time machine, I'd tell my 25 year old self to lift (my 16yo self would not have listened......). I cannot imagine how much better my endurance 'career' would have been. Running is my first love. But outside of 2 days in mid-April during lockdown, I've not run at all in 2020. I will prob start back up in 2021, but

I take lots of time when I have my main sets for the week, upwards of 8 minutes...because I want to complete them. But when I have pause squat, or volume day, I reduce recovery time. Workouts take about 1h20m or so.

This last part will be tough for you, given your work background. You need to stop thinking, buy the book, engage a coach for vide review and programming. Your 45yo self will be grateful. Put your running shoes on the shelf for 6 months, commit to this for that time, and start back running again. I've never heard Mark say "DO NOT RUN". I have heard him say, "DO NOT RUN LIKE A MANIAC." (paraphrasing). After you obtain some strength gains, and you want to run a couple times a week, knock yourself out. AND understand that the gains under the bar will slow.

My guess...you do this for 6 months, you're not going to want to stop with the NLP. And the running will continue to take a back seat.

Hope all this helps.

I started running my freshman year of high school as a result of being part of my high school’s soccer team. I continued running up until I started college at which point I continued running sporadically. Towards the end of my senior year of college I did a very long run (about 20 miles) with little training as part of a fundraiser. This turned out to be a very dumb thing to do because since then I’ve not been able to run more than 3 miles without significant pain in my ankles and/or knees. I’ve tried everything from reducing the rate of increase of the mileage to changing shoes to switching to a treadmill and nothing seemed to work.

A week or so ago, I stumbled on this (link) article that you wrote (it was mentioned in a podcast I listen to), which led to reading a few other articles on startingstrength.com. It wasn’t long before I found your article (link) making the case against running, which was quite eye-opening, to say the least. Since then, I’ve read several more articles as well as watched several videos including this one (link) on the case for the Starting Strength model. Over the past couple weeks, I’ve started to look at things in a new light and have become aware of the fact that the soreness that I’ve been experiencing from sleeping on my shoulder wrong a few months ago (as well as other aches and pains I have from time to time) is probably due to my lack of strength.

All that to say, at this point, I’m 95 percent convinced, and the only reason that percentage isn’t at 100 percent is because I still have some unanswered questions:

1. As a mechanical engineer who has done a lot of running and studied the way the foot is constructed, I can say with confidence that the human foot is an exquisite mechanical system that appears to be designed for the purpose of making it possible for people to run efficiently. Further, while (as you’ve pointed out), lifting heavy things is one of the most natural things a person can do, isn’t it also true that running is an entirely natural thing to do? After all, a runner requires even less equipment than the weight lifter (athletes in ancient times even did it in the nude without any equipment at all). How is it that one completely natural activity (i.e. strength training with barbell exercises) is extremely good for you while another completely natural activity (i.e. running) can actually be detrimental to your health with these differences becoming more stark as the activity becomes more extreme?
2. One of the arguments in favor of the healthiness of running that I’ve heard is the fact that there are many old people (including nonagenarians) who run and sometimes do so for quite long distances (including marathons). Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are making a different point: not only can a person of any age improve their health by strength training, but also a person who begins strength training at the age of 10 can continue doing it until they die at 90+ without concern for injury that is associated with repetitive movements (or any of the other downsides to running you describe). Am I understanding that correctly?
3. Anytime I encounter something that causes me to massively change my thinking like this, I’m extremely interested to hear what people who aren’t convinced by the argument have to say about it. In light of that, what would you say is the best argument against the Starting Strength model that you’re aware of, and what is your response? Furthermore, would you be willing to share something that someone critical of the Starting Strength program has written that you believe represents the best argument against it?
4. My wife eats much more healthily than I do, and as is true of almost all women, would like to lose some weight (particularly after giving birth to my son last year). However, she long ago bought into Pilates and Yoga (not the wacky meditation part, but just the stretching part). How would you recommend that I explain to her that she would benefit far more from strength training when she wants to be skinnier, not necessarily stronger (after all, “beefy” is not really the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of attractive traits of the female gender)?
5. Finally, in your video making the case for the Starting Strength model, you mention that there needs to be significant amounts of time (i.e. ~7 minutes for a novice and 15-20 minutes for someone more advanced) between sets to allow for sufficient recovery, which would seem to very quickly add up to a massive amount of time across 5 sets of 5 different activities. How much time do I need to be prepared to commit to strength training each week during the “novice” phase? Can it be done with a time commitment of just 1 hour per day?

[Bill Anders]

I'll pile on here, as someone with similar experiences. I, too, started running in middle school, then added the running and swimming. Through my 20s, 30s, and early 40s, I was an endurance junkie. "The longer the better" was my mantra. On a multi-hour long run on a Saturday morning, I realized that my 20+ hr/week training on top of my 65+ hr/week job really kept me away from my wife much longer than I found fulfilling. So I finished my training cycle for my next 50-miler, ran it, then quit at 44. I always looked at the gym bros with disdain, but played around with Crossfit-style workouts for a few years before finding a Rip article—"Who Wants to be a Novice? You do!"—that made sense.

Several years on, it still does. At 52, I use the program as a tool. Every spring I start a new Novice Linear Program, stronger each year. That work really drives a lot of my summer volunteer work, carrying 60lb packs + tools 10+ miles into the backcountry to spend a week clearing/rehabilitating hiking trails. More often than not, as the work grinds on everyone through the week, I'm the "last one standing" for the heavy work on the last day and am dragging the crew back to the trailhead for beers. Then winter rolls around and warm season of training is key to my 5-6 days/week of snowboarding, which is my #1 focus every year. Like I mentioned, Starting Strength is a lifestyle tool. A fantastic one at that. One that doesn't get in the way of a nice run whenever the mood strikes.

Long story made longer—my wife could not keep up during any of my endurance activities, so that was time without her. I like her. With Starting Strength, she gets under the bar and does some work and enjoys the results. The trick is to convince your bride that the scale number isn't the one that counts, but the number on the bar. She'll soon find that her pants fit better and that she has more endurance for your young son. Here are a couple of articles on this site that could speak to her - "How to Talk About Lifting to Adult Novice Women" and "Quality of Life and Barbell Training for Women". If you two can arrange it to lift together, that's even better.

Throughout your novice phase, one hour will be sufficient. You'll get plenty strong. Then it's up to you if you want to really push yourself with longer training sessions and higher weight. By then, both you and your wife will see the benefits.

Lastly, take a look at Ryan Hall, former half-/full marathon Olympian and current US half-marathon record holder. Once he retired, he got under the bar. While he doesn't follow the Starting Strength methodology, he's definitely a different athlete than he was five years ago (here he is doing 600lb above-the-knee rack pulls). And he can still get out there and run when he feels it.

So don't overthink it. Just work on technique, follow the NLP, and enjoy the benefits.

[mom2sethc]

Hello,

As a former runner and a female, I'll give you my experience. I've been a runner since my mid 20's (never super fast, but tons of endurance), I'm 58 now. I've ran 14 full marathons and many more half marathons. Yet I didn't have the upper body strength to pull myself up out of the water into a boat! I started to strength train about 6 years ago, while still trying to run marathons. I quickly realized that it was simply too much for me, so I backed off considerably with my running, but did not quit running until just recently. You can run and strength train, but there is a balance. As a women I did have the "going to get bulky" fears that most women have. But as I started to see the numbers of my lifts going up, I quit worrying about that.
Anyway, currently I am about 3-5 lbs heavier than my "running" weight. I am in the same clothing size that I was before. My body has changed, no doubt. But I love the changes and I am even more amazed by what my body can do! I just recently deadlifted 210 lbs, I bench press 95 (I know I'll hit 100 soon!), and I can back squat 145. Not shocking numbers, but for this 58 year old, 5'2" , 130 lb woman...I'm pretty proud! Oh, and as for that upper body issue I mentioned above... I can now do multiple unassisted pull and chin ups!
As I said, I quit running in this last 6 months, I am now lifting 3-4 days per week, and doing some cycling and yoga.
I'll quit rambling now, but do get and read the books. They will answer your questions.

[FatButWeak]

I started running my freshman year of high school as a result of being part of my high school’s soccer team. I continued running up until I started college at which point I continued running sporadically. Towards the end of my senior year of college I did a very long run (about 20 miles) with little training as part of a fundraiser. This turned out to be a very dumb thing to do because since then I’ve not been able to run more than 3 miles without significant pain in my ankles and/or knees. I’ve tried everything from reducing the rate of increase of the mileage to changing shoes to switching to a treadmill and nothing seemed to work.

A week or so ago, I stumbled on this (link) article that you wrote (it was mentioned in a podcast I listen to), which led to reading a few other articles on startingstrength.com. It wasn’t long before I found your article (link) making the case against running, which was quite eye-opening, to say the least. Since then, I’ve read several more articles as well as watched several videos including this one (link) on the case for the Starting Strength model. Over the past couple weeks, I’ve started to look at things in a new light and have become aware of the fact that the soreness that I’ve been experiencing from sleeping on my shoulder wrong a few months ago (as well as other aches and pains I have from time to time) is probably due to my lack of strength.

All that to say, at this point, I’m 95 percent convinced, and the only reason that percentage isn’t at 100 percent is because I still have some unanswered questions:

1. As a mechanical engineer who has done a lot of running and studied the way the foot is constructed, I can say with confidence that the human foot is an exquisite mechanical system that appears to be designed for the purpose of making it possible for people to run efficiently. Further, while (as you’ve pointed out), lifting heavy things is one of the most natural things a person can do, isn’t it also true that running is an entirely natural thing to do? After all, a runner requires even less equipment than the weight lifter (athletes in ancient times even did it in the nude without any equipment at all). How is it that one completely natural activity (i.e. strength training with barbell exercises) is extremely good for you while another completely natural activity (i.e. running) can actually be detrimental to your health with these differences becoming more stark as the activity becomes more extreme?
2. One of the arguments in favor of the healthiness of running that I’ve heard is the fact that there are many old people (including nonagenarians) who run and sometimes do so for quite long distances (including marathons). Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are making a different point: not only can a person of any age improve their health by strength training, but also a person who begins strength training at the age of 10 can continue doing it until they die at 90+ without concern for injury that is associated with repetitive movements (or any of the other downsides to running you describe). Am I understanding that correctly?
3. Anytime I encounter something that causes me to massively change my thinking like this, I’m extremely interested to hear what people who aren’t convinced by the argument have to say about it. In light of that, what would you say is the best argument against the Starting Strength model that you’re aware of, and what is your response? Furthermore, would you be willing to share something that someone critical of the Starting Strength program has written that you believe represents the best argument against it?
4. My wife eats much more healthily than I do, and as is true of almost all women, would like to lose some weight (particularly after giving birth to my son last year). However, she long ago bought into Pilates and Yoga (not the wacky meditation part, but just the stretching part). How would you recommend that I explain to her that she would benefit far more from strength training when she wants to be skinnier, not necessarily stronger (after all, “beefy” is not really the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of attractive traits of the female gender)?
5. Finally, in your video making the case for the Starting Strength model, you mention that there needs to be significant amounts of time (i.e. ~7 minutes for a novice and 15-20 minutes for someone more advanced) between sets to allow for sufficient recovery, which would seem to very quickly add up to a massive amount of time across 5 sets of 5 different activities. How much time do I need to be prepared to commit to strength training each week during the “novice” phase? Can it be done with a time commitment of just 1 hour per day?

HA!!! Here's where you earn your money, Rip. You love teaching people to Sq, bench, Press, Bench, Clean and deadlift. Its play for you. Programming is play for you. Correcting form is play for you. Laughing at, "the haters, er, ers" is play for you. Now you have to work to convince an engineer (!!!!!) that the foot isnt "designed" to run, that his anorectic wife who does yoga doesn't eat "healthier" than him (because he still uses butter on his bagel), that the adaptations of LSD to the lungs and heart, arent necessarily superior when it comes to longevity than the lung/heart adaptations secured by 5 sets of 5 at 90% of 5rm; that a skinny emaciated runners physique is NOT the epitome of aged health. Now go earn your next BMW with paddle shifters, boyo.