Serious question about Smith machine

[Jason Donaldson]

Well yes your squat was down, because you had not done squats in 6 weeks.

And yet, after years of squatting and not leg pressing, I started my leg presses far above anything I'd ever done previously when I had leg pressed as a younger man...

So barbell training alone drove up my leg press, but leg presses alone allowed my barbell lifts to decline. Huh...

[Satch12879]

Whatever is going on in this thread aside, I’ve been thinking about this. A 405 squat in a Smith machine is “far” “easier” than a 405 barbell squat, so obviously the bollus of stress is not equivalent at the same load. Perhaps the increases when utilizing such a device peter out for a similar reason pressing movements stall first, i.e., insufficient stress to force an adaptation.

I’m sure many here will say “duh” to that. My contention is that because of the nature of the movement performed in such a fixture, you can never really do what you need to do to increase the stress if a strength adaptation is desired. If there’s insufficient stress, you could add more reps or sets, but that means lighter weights. You could add additional days, but that just means more “volume,” not weight on the bar. You could force more weight on the bar, but because you’re not eliciting a strength adaptation, you fail and then drop reps.

This is probably related to Santana’s Theorem that the fewer the number of joints the movement involves, the greater the number of reps are required to accomplish the relative same strength adaptation. The causative mechanism are the same, i.e., stabilizer muscles and the fine balance component.

[Mark Rippetoe]

One rep max? For what? Leg press competitions? Hard to compare different machines anyways.

And what exactly is “real life”. I thought strength was strength?

No I am not AI, and I have posted more but I guess Rip censors them.

Also, are you trying to suggest something with the pronouns comment?



The barbell squat can be a fabulous display of strength, but not necessarily an accurate measure of strength.

No, this is not AI, because AI is better than this.

[McBee99]

And yet, after years of squatting and not leg pressing, I started my leg presses far above anything I'd ever done previously when I had leg pressed as a younger man...

So barbell training alone drove up my leg press, but leg presses alone allowed my barbell lifts to decline. Huh...

Yes, because there is a much greater skill component to a barbell squat than a leg press.

Why is that so difficult to understand Jason?

[Jason Donaldson]

McBee, you are not, despite a request to do so, stating a clear thesis that you propose and wish to defend, nor are you clearly defining terms as you wish to use them. All you're doing is making claims against those of others, then, when those others' claims are defended, you obfuscate and slide around definitions. You're coming across like a person doing light contact sparring who keeps calling his own techniques as good, but his opponent's as "that wouldn't really hurt". Look, I strive to be a fairly patient and charitable interlocutor on this board, but your style has gotten a bit much, even for me.

Look at Satch's post, by contrast. He's set forth a clear proposition, included defense of it, and even drawn connections between his thesis and the work of others. Coherent discussion can follow from that, and to real benefit, not only to those actively discussing, but also to those just observing. Considering his example should repay your attention, if you will do so in good faith.

[Peter Bex]

It's kind of crazy that this thread was a guy asking about a smith machine squat v a barbell squat & you've jumped in the middle to argue for the leg press.

I got some really good answers on this, and it completely derailed. Would've been nice if I could just have locked the thread, as it would've been good for the archive. Unfortunately that doesn't seem possible (or at least, I don't see any option to do that).

[McBee99]

McBee, you are not, despite a request to do so, stating a clear thesis that you propose and wish to defend, nor are you clearly defining terms as you wish to use them. All you're doing is making claims against those of others, then, when those others' claims are defended, you obfuscate and slide around definitions. You're coming across like a person doing light contact sparring who keeps calling his own techniques as good, but his opponent's as "that wouldn't really hurt". Look, I strive to be a fairly patient and charitable interlocutor on this board, but your style has gotten a bit much, even for me.

Look at Satch's post, by contrast. He's set forth a clear proposition, included defense of it, and even drawn connections between his thesis and the work of others. Coherent discussion can follow from that, and to real benefit, not only to those actively discussing, but also to those just observing. Considering his example should repay your attention, if you will do so in good faith.

Are you an SSC Jason?

It’s all there, black and white, clear as crystal.

Do you really think it’s merely a coincidence that Rip keeps a leg press at WFAC?

[Maybach]

Yes, because there is a much greater skill component to a barbell squat than a leg press.

Why is that so difficult to understand Jason?

While the skill floor for squats is indeed higher than a leg press, the skill ceiling for both is relatively low. You drive your squat up by getting stronger.

None of the lifts are particularly hard movements to do. They can be coached correctly in an afternoon. This isn't a "lifetime to master" situation. It's maybe a week. If the upper limit on your squat is your skill in executing the movement...I'm afraid you just aren"to going to make it.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I got some really good answers on this, and it completely derailed. Would've been nice if I could just have locked the thread, as it would've been good for the archive. Unfortunately that doesn't seem possible (or at least, I don't see any option to do that).

No, Peter, you don't get to lock the thread when you're satisfied that everything interesting has been already said.

Are you an SSC Jason?

It’s all there, black and white, clear as crystal.

Do you really think it’s merely a coincidence that Rip keeps a leg press at WFAC?

Do you know why I keep a leg press at WFAC? Actually answer this question, please.

[McBee99]

Do you know why I keep a leg press at WFAC? Actually answer this question, please.

Rip keeps a leg press at WFAC to begin training those who are unable to barbell squat in their current state.

“It has a place in every gym who intends to do business with the general public”.