Olympic inclusivity

[Satch12879]

Is this situation really as clear cut as chromosomes? I'm not sure about this specific individual and I'm not sure how you would go about devising a test or set of tests to decide either way but there's intersex individuals with xy chromosomes who can give birth? Now, that extra testosterone is coming from somewhere and often there are pseudo testicles in the mix. So maybe this is all it comes down to but I feel like these intersex people are being treated the same as a trans female which doesn't really seem like the same case to me.

It's about dudes that dress like girls; don't use the exception to make the rule.

[KeithI]

Is this situation really as clear cut as chromosomes? I'm not sure about this specific individual and I'm not sure how you would go about devising a test or set of tests to decide either way but there's intersex individuals with xy chromosomes who can give birth? Now, that extra testosterone is coming from somewhere and often there are pseudo testicles in the mix. So maybe this is all it comes down to but I feel like these intersex people are being treated the same as a trans female which doesn't really seem like the same case to me.

I can agree with this. I don’t believe Algeria encourages trans stuff, so I can believe this person was born with a vagina at birth. For most of human history that would have made them female because nobody knew what chromosomes were. So at the very least I have some degree of sympathy for this fucked up person as opposed to a tranny that was always a man until he decided to declare himself a woman for the purpose of boxing against women.

It’s also my understanding that the Algerian typically loses to the better female boxers. So I kind of suspect the IOC was just hoping they’d lose and nobody would make a fuss.

[Farmer]

Is this situation really as clear cut as chromosomes? I'm not sure about this specific individual and I'm not sure how you would go about devising a test or set of tests to decide either way but there's intersex individuals with xy chromosomes who can give birth? Now, that extra testosterone is coming from somewhere and often there are pseudo testicles in the mix. So maybe this is all it comes down to but I feel like these intersex people are being treated the same as a trans female which doesn't really seem like the same case to me.

If she has supra-elevated levels of testosterone, it pretty much is the same issue as a trans-man fighting a normal "cis"-woman. So the accusations of her being a man and this being unfair to the female boxers is kinda of broken clock right twice a day scenario. All the Algerian has to do is either produce an XX chromosome test result, and/or post their T/E ratios. But they, and their handlers, will hide behind a quasi-HIPA defense. The IOC doesn't want to get involved, and the athletes PASSPORT that says he is a she is good enough for the IOC. They will, conveniently, be one of the "randomly" not chosen to be drug tested. IOC doesn't want to go down this road again.

I mean, they ARE testing men and women for ever so slightly elevated levels of exogenous testosterone, and they get banned for 4-8 years if caught.
Testostrone is known to be THAT potent. These DSD cases like Caster Semenya, she is just not a little high/to-far-left-side-of-the-bell-curve for test levels for a girl, she is off the charts.

If a cis-man, competing as a man, had lost his testicles in a bad wood chipper accident, he is NOT allow to get ANY Therapeutical Use Exception for testosterone replacement ... AT ALL! WADA/IOC/AIU will not allow any TUEs for any anabolics period flat.

Extra high levels of test kinda seem like a biggie Dunk

[Jason Donaldson]

I had a realization about the XY chromosome issue last night, watching a clip of an IOC response to all this, which repeated that these athletes' passports state they're female, they've lived as female, etc.

The IOC and the world had this matter settled during a quaint little period of time known as the Cold War, when Warsaw Pact nations tried sneaking in athletes presenting as women, particularly for strength sports, and the Games started testing for and excluding entrants with XY chromosomes.

Because, as everyone knew, they had a competitive advantage.

That's why they were entered, and that's why they were disqualified.

It's interesting that no one is bringing up this bit of history in the public discourse.

[Dunk]

If she has supra-elevated levels of testosterone, it pretty much is the same issue as a trans-man fighting a normal "cis"-woman. So the accusations of her being a man and this being unfair to the female boxers is kinda of broken clock right twice a day scenario. All the Algerian has to do is either produce an XX chromosome test result, and/or post their T/E ratios. But they, and their handlers, will hide behind a quasi-HIPA defense. The IOC doesn't want to get involved, and the athletes PASSPORT that says he is a she is good enough for the IOC. They will, conveniently, be one of the "randomly" not chosen to be drug tested. IOC doesn't want to go down this road again.

I mean, they ARE testing men and women for ever so slightly elevated levels of exogenous testosterone, and they get banned for 4-8 years if caught.
Testostrone is known to be THAT potent. These DSD cases like Caster Semenya, she is just not a little high/to-far-left-side-of-the-bell-curve for test levels for a girl, she is off the charts.

If a cis-man, competing as a man, had lost his testicles in a bad wood chipper accident, he is NOT allow to get ANY Therapeutical Use Exception for testosterone replacement ... AT ALL! WADA/IOC/AIU will not allow any TUEs for any anabolics period flat.

Extra high levels of test kinda seem like a biggie Dunk

Yes, they have higher testosterone levels but they're not that of a male so I'm not sure how you draw that line? Massively varying levels of testosterone occur in individual males so this point is an odd one to make. The question is whether they should've been assigned a male at birth I guess but the fact some of them have the ability to give birth really muddies the waters. But, from reading other messages maybe this isn't correct? I get all the politics around this and we know what goes on, I think most of us on this forum are on the same page with regards to this.

[mkm5]

Yes, they have higher testosterone levels but they're not that of a male so I'm not sure how you draw that line? Massively varying levels of testosterone occur in individual males so this point is an odd one to make. The question is whether they should've been assigned a male at birth I guess but the fact some of them have the ability to give birth really muddies the waters. But, from reading other messages maybe this isn't correct? I get all the politics around this and we know what goes on, I think most of us on this forum are on the same page with regards to this.

Yes, if this is the case, it's an anomaly.

These anomalies aren't the issue with "men in women's sports," it's just a distraction to the real issue...

[golftdibrad]

I had a realization about the XY chromosome issue last night, watching a clip of an IOC response to all this, which repeated that these athletes' passports state they're female, they've lived as female, etc.

The IOC and the world had this matter settled during a quaint little period of time known as the Cold War, when Warsaw Pact nations tried sneaking in athletes presenting as women, particularly for strength sports, and the Games started testing for and excluding entrants with XY chromosomes.

Because, as everyone knew, they had a competitive advantage.

That's why they were entered, and that's why they were disqualified.

It's interesting that no one is bringing up this bit of history in the public discourse.

Thats a bingo.

Competitive sport just isn't supposed to be about fairness to the athletes; its about following the rules and giving the fans a show on an equal playing field.

Do I have compassion for these intersex peoples' situation? Yes, however any expression of Y chromosome means you are a man, and you get to try to be good enough with the other men. Thats the lot in life they were dealt.

I wasn't born rich and with genes to be skinny, so being a pro race driver wasn't in my future for example. There are thousands of others.

[Yngvi]

Yes, they have higher testosterone levels but they're not that of a male so I'm not sure how you draw that line? Massively varying levels of testosterone occur in individual males so this point is an odd one to make. The question is whether they should've been assigned a male at birth I guess but the fact some of them have the ability to give birth really muddies the waters. But, from reading other messages maybe this isn't correct? I get all the politics around this and we know what goes on, I think most of us on this forum are on the same page with regards to this.

Show us an example of somebody with a Y chromosome ever getting pregnant naturally and birthing a child.
This does not happen.

We are not at all on the same page.
We don't think men should compete in women's sports; you want to find a way to justify it through sympathy or pilpul or some other postmodernist bullshit.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, they have higher testosterone levels but they're not that of a male so I'm not sure how you draw that line? Massively varying levels of testosterone occur in individual males so this point is an odd one to make. The question is whether they should've been assigned a male at birth I guess but the fact some of them have the ability to give birth really muddies the waters. But, from reading other messages maybe this isn't correct? I get all the politics around this and we know what goes on, I think most of us on this forum are on the same page with regards to this.

Training Female Lifters: Neuromuscular Efficiency | Mark Rippetoe

[Lost and Found]

Does anyone on this board have daughters competing in youth sports?
Have they been checked for a Y chromosome or undescended testicles?