Maximizing recovery

[beast]

Just do paleo plus milk. Even if you're skinny theres no point in eating shit, you can still get unnecessarily fat in some cases with too many carbs. About 300 carbs is plenty 200 (milk) 100 (fruit and veg).

[strengthstarter]

This is the thing that I dont understand about this dietary approach, or at least the rationale for it. There is a widely accepted theory of how the change from the paleo environment now predisposes us to chronic disease, and the role of inflammation is central to that. However, it is not to do with diet, but the role of modern medicine. We now face a dramatically reduced the threat of death from acute infections, which were primary killers in their environment. So, "fit" in their environment (RE survival of the fittest) would today be considered an exaggerated immune/inflammatory response.

You more know details than I do about primary killers of those in the paleo environment. I always understood it more generally, that the infant/youth mortality rate was high, but then leveled off to rates more comparable to modern man beyond the age of about 10yo. But what you say makes sense; someone with a higher inflammatory response might fare better in that environment.

The problem is that we now understand the important role that inflammatory/immune hyper reactivity plays in the pathophysiology of heart disease and diabetes. So, the flip side of the coin to the protection we get from antibiotics is an immune system still genetically programmed to be hyper responsive and therefore predispose us to these chronic diseases.

Is this really a flip side? In one case, we're talking about antibiotics that are taken for a short period of time when a person has an infection, and in the other case, we are talking about a chronic condition, where the immune is activated do to daily dietary intake.

However, despite also agreeing that fat is not the devil, and while accepting that no doubt there are components of what Paleo advocates recommend that are beneficial (how can eating more veg be bad?) the rationale does not make sense, and therefore I question the entire concept...In the context of the inflammation-chronic disease evolutionary anthropology theories, a diet that worked for our neolithic ancestors would not be one that limited inflammation.

First a point of clarification: are you talking about neolitic or paleolithic here? Neolithic man started eating grain and it is correlated with a sharp reduction in lifespan and a reduction in size/growth/development of people compared to their paleolithic ancestors. There are other factors here besides diet. For example, fighting for land became more prevalent in the Neolithic age and a lot of people probably died young in wars. Still, the fossil evidence of stunted growth seems pretty compelling.

Could shifting to a more inflammatory grain-based diet help someone fight disease? I'm no expert, but I am not sure it would. I seem to remember reading that extended, chronic, inflammatory response actually weakened the immune system over time because it basically added stress to the system, depleting its resources. Could such a diet help in an acute way? e.g., stimulating a response when needed? That's an interesting question.

Coming back to the original point, I do think the basic inflammation premise of a Paleo diet is sound, because I believe there is compelling evidence that the modern American diet is making people sick, and that one big reason for that is the predominance of grain-based food sources throughout our food chain. And I'm ignoring the elephant in the room here and not even talking about refined sugar/corn syrup. Inflammation is only one aspect of Paleo. Preventing insulin hyperactivity is also a key aspect of the diet. In fact, its one key reason paleo typically allows fruit and vegetables without concerning itself too much about carbs (other than cutting out starchy tubers), because the fiber in those foods helps slow digestion, increase satiety, and dull the insulin response.

Anyways, to me, understanding all of this makes it clearer why someone might do paleo, then modify it to purposefully spike insulin before a workout, or add milk to achieve IGF-1 benefits (which to my knowledge are suspected but not proven; of course, what IS proven in nutritional science, heh...). The basics remain the same, and I believe they are pretty sound.

[rdp]

Coming back to the original point, I do think the basic inflammation premise of a Paleo diet is sound, because I believe there is compelling evidence that the modern American diet is making people sick, and that one big reason for that is the predominance of grain-based food sources throughout our food chain. And I'm ignoring the elephant in the room here and not even talking about refined sugar/corn syrup. Inflammation is only one aspect of Paleo. Preventing insulin hyperactivity is also a key aspect of the diet. In fact, its one key reason paleo typically allows fruit and vegetables without concerning itself too much about carbs (other than cutting out starchy tubers), because the fiber in those foods helps slow digestion, increase satiety, and dull the insulin response.

Much of that is an argument for eating real food (no or minimal processing) rather than an argument for paleo. Although I'm never sure if milk and cheese count as processed or not.

Just what is the marginal benefit of cutting grains if you're eating a reasonable mix of real foods?

[strengthstarter]

Much of that is an argument for eating real food (no or minimal processing) rather than an argument for paleo. Although I'm never sure if milk and cheese count as processed or not.

Just what is the marginal benefit of cutting grains if you're eating a reasonable mix of real foods?

I agree that there is an aspect of "non-processed" foods to Paleo, especially when talking about fiber content and insulin response, but I don't think that's the only benefit. As to the marginal benefit of replacing (not cutting) grains with fruit and vegetable sources, I see these main benefits:


1. A reduced general and gut inflammatory response from the grain and dairy.
2. More advantageous glycemic index for grain and dairy (presuming you aren't trying to spike your insulin for some reason).
3. Increased micronutrient density as compared to grains and dairy, even accounting for the fact these items are typically "fortified." (Although because dairy is fortified with Vitamin D, you might want to supplement that particular micronutrient if you are off dairy)

I've found difficulty with the "non-processed" foods lingo because it is kind of ill-defined. Some people take it to the point where they try to eat everything raw, which can be unhealthy. Varying opinions about cheese or grains in different forms, and then of course some who mean it to just include refined sugars and junk food.

[rdp]

1) Is this a reasonable article on inflammatory responses? If not, what should I read?
http://www.diet.com/g/antiinflammatory-diets

It was one of the first google hits that dealt with inflammation in humans rather than cows.

2) Is having an "advantageous glycemic index" without controversy? I recall reading a bunch of pushback on the issue

3) As long as you're getting adequate micronutrients, why should it matter if every item you eat is dense with micronutrients?

[ColoWayno]

Yup, vitamin supplements and multiple protein shakes sounds just like paleo man would do.

Your already "working out" and doing girly foam rolling (all modern technology for pussies*) why not go the whole hog and enjoy the wonders of modern carbohydrate. I find all the evolutionary justifications silly, we are not training in a natural way, we want to progress quickly even if is not a 100% the best thing for long term health. That is why we do GOMAD and take unnatural super processed whey protein, it is also the Reason why John Welbourn took Steroids, yet he still raves about how good it is to be 110% natural like a caveman.

*Real men get big & strong from wrestling zebras.

I think most people here aren't necessarily buying into the ideology wholesale. Also, there are quite a few people on the board who are past novice progression, the need for GOMAD and the ability to achieve fast gains.
I'm nearing 50 and have some athero in my legs, so when I read about "paleo" I'm more concerned about what it means in terms of disease progression, not so much worried about adding 100 lbs to my squat.
When I first found out about my athero, I didn't know what in the hell to eat because nothing makes sense when looked at from the standard medical perspective. "You can't eat too much carbs or fat, therefore eat your chicken and veggies and shut up." Needless to say I lost 15+ lbs pretty fast.
Fortunately I figured out that fish was ok regardless of the fat, and that steel cut oats were better than white bread, so I managed ok.
At least now I can throw some grass feed beef on the plate knowing that it's not going to speed up my athero.
I'm definitely not a "paleo nazi", hell, I don't even believe in macro-evolution. (I guess that does make me a caveman of sorts )

[ColoWayno]

1) Is this a reasonable article on inflammatory responses? If not, what should I read?
http://www.diet.com/g/antiinflammatory-diets

It was one of the first google hits that dealt with inflammation in humans rather than cows.

2) Is having an "advantageous glycemic index" without controversy? I recall reading a bunch of pushback on the issue

3) As long as you're getting adequate micronutrients, why should it matter if every item you eat is dense with micronutrients?

I read most of that. It seems fairly "conventional". In order to decide if that's good or bad it's going to take a bit more research. For starters (has this been mentioned?) I would get Good Calories, Bad Calories. I'm only half way through it but I'm already adopting some ideas from it into my diet.
I'm 47 and have diagnosed athero in my legs and am not doing rapid progression in my lifts at the moment. Keeping that in mind my current level of understanding has me adopting (to the best of my abilities) a few ideas. Here are some of the main ones:
Eliminate sugars (simple sugars from soda, white bread, etc)
Reduce grains (right now I'm sticking with a moderate serving of oatmeal for breakfast, I'll make that Steel Cut when I get back home)
Reduce starchy stuff like potatoes.
Avoid stuff made with veggie oils (prefer olive oil for dressings, coconut oil for frying, avoid soy)
Get a decent serving of fruit with breakfast.
Get most of my carbs with breakfast and after workouts.
A sweet potato with butter after workouts seems like a good tasty idea.
Use high quality meat, grass fed beef or bison, good fish, etc. when available.
Get tons of veggies including leafy stuff (this especially seems to help my digestion).
I'm not doing fast progression on my lifts at the moment so I only have milk in the morning and after workouts at night (24 to 40 oz total). When I intend to progress more rapidly I'll up that to 1/2 GOMAD.
Exceptions:
have some beer on weekends because I can't imagine life without it.
get a small amount of dark chocolate (seems to have benefits and is good)
have at least one meal a week where you don't think about rules too much
have wine two or three days a week.

I've got a ways to go but this is a start.

[Smith K]

Boys, This thread was meant to be about maximizing recovery for the skinny novice.

Not a thread on Paleo diet vs milk and grains. While it's interesting this isn't really the spot for it.

[strengthstarter]

Fair enough.

I was thinking 1000 calories from almonds would be easy to fit in.

I don't see anything wrong with this, although you may want to get more creative. Fat is usually what makes stuff taste good. Nut flours are a great subsitute for breading. For dessert, a lot of times I will coat some strawberries with some ground pistachio. That kind of thing.

1000 or so calories from steak or ground steak.

Yep. There is a great paleo meatball recipe over on the robbwolf blog somewhere, with plenty of calories. It uses grass-fed beef with a feg eggs thrown into the mix. Roasting a whole chicken or two is also really efficient. Cornish game hen if you want a snack. Eating the whole bird is also good because you are likely eating some glutamine from various ligaments and whatnot you end up consuming.

1000 calories from something like KD

What's KD?

Then fill in a 1000 with eggs/ chicken/tuna / whey.

Seems reasonable to me. I'd personally use whey as a last resort, or maybe as part of a pre/post workout meal. Cottage cheese is a popular late night snack because it supposedly digests slowly and feeds your body during the fasting period while you are asleep.

As far as fruits and veges how much would you guys recommend.

If you really want to maximize performance, limit your fructose consumption, which means limiting fruit intake. Some fruits are more sugary than others. Berries are a popular choice. Limiting fructose is totally an optional thing though, and I'd recommend seeing how it goes with the fruit. Vegetables that are non-starchy tubers or legumes you can pretty much eat in an unlimited quantity, and if you want to use veggies as a carb source, you can add in some starchy tubers (yams/sweet potatoes are popular) to boost carbs a bit. Although you are probably already getting plenty of carbs if you are GOMADing.

As Far as supplements like creatine and fish oil?

Creatine is pretty safe. I don't currently use it, but a lot of people report it to be safe and effective. Fish oil is a great supplement, both in terms of omega-3s and fat cals. Eat it with meals, and you can go as high as 2g per lb. of bodyweight (although this is a bit extreme). If you decide to megadose fish oil make sure your aren't doing cod liver oil, or something that will megadose you with the wrong vitamins. Most people supplement with an oil that is specifically for omega-3 (I think it is Norweigan mackerel), and I hear salmon oil is also fairly good for this.

I don't know if you have this issue, but if you find eating like this is boring and hard to do, one thing that helps is to invest in a variety of tasty oils. Walnut oil is a very nice (low temperature) substitute for olive oil in a dressing, for example. If you like peanut butter but want to avoid potential inflammation issues, you can toss some almonds/pistachios/whatever into a food processor, add a little bit of oil and maybe some honey/salt to taste and make a very nice nut butter.

Anything else to maximize recovery and milk linear progress as long as possible?

Get your rest, eat enough, and experiment with carb cycling either with shakes or au natural via starchy vegetables. Despite their low energy density, don't underestimate the nutritive value of eating large quantities of vegetables. I find myself eating a entire 1# bags of spinach, for example. Using half a red pepper as a bun for a hamburger is tasty. It is rudimentary, but if you try to "eat the rainbow" of vegetables, you'll usually cover yourself very well from a vitamin/mineral perspective.

I've done a lot of my own personal research and experimentation as a fatty trying to trim down, so I've been more on the low carb side of things for myself. You may want to look into various carb-cycling strategies to determine if you can time your carb intake to optimize it a bit. From the little I've read, these strategies vary highly highly between individuals, and vary highly based on one's specific goals.

Good luck.

[MazdaMatt]

In my experience working my way up from skinny... I have tried many complicated methods of getting all that I need. Weight gain forumula shakes, piles of veggies, etc.

In the end there is NOTHING that beats the recovery ability of double bacon deluxe cheeseburgers and plenty of whole milk.

It is almost too simple to be true.