Great intensity day after stomach virus...HOW????

[Erik Y]

However, the RPE camp feels confident that the difference in wrongness is not relevant to long term training progress (eg: 405*5*5 and 395*5*5 don’t have a difference in adaptive response that is worth chasing).

Right, but what about 405x3 versus 395x3? If I had used RPE on my last workout, I would have sandbagged my top set by almost 10%. Surely that makes a difference.

PR based training folks will be wrong about: actual excess capability in pounds in a made rep, the amount of error in pounds experienced in a missed rep, and assuming an increase in strength has manifested before confirming with a test

RPE doesn’t allow lifters to know their excess capability, how much they overshot a rep by, or how much strength has increased before testing, either. I don’t see how anyone can know these things without testing them. But that’s besides the point. What does it add? If I’m doing 250 fewer pounds of tonnage than I could (or more than I ought to) on volume day, what do I get in return for that sacrifice? Will my progress be steadier? Will I improve faster? Will my form be more consistent? If not, why would I make this change?

And to borrow from another argument - how do you miss an RPE 8 squat? How does a lifter on a three-month RPE program know that it is not working unless he crashes out of it? What do we get back for pulling useful data and accuracy out of our training that makes it better for us to do so?

[Ivan Stepic]

Yes. People like to shit on RPE as though one would say, "well I expected to squat 315x5x3@8 today, but my first set was @9.5 I'm just going to do 225 instead." When in reality we are talking about adjustments of a few %, i.e. squatting 305x5x3 vs 315x5x3 that day. It is silly. The long-term trends are important, not the exact weight on the bar at each session.

And a 3% decrease in weight suddenly feels significantly lighter? If your performance is wildly oscillating day to day, that means you are fucking around in the gym (trying out new stuff and randomly changing variables) or you are not taking care of your recovery which is to a large extent objective.

[Ivan Stepic]

Shitty days in the gym happen. But shitty days probably can't be counted as training as they don't serve as a step in the training process. Make sure you don't have a shitty day every other time and you'll be fine. If your job doesn't allow you to eat and sleep then your job doesn't allow you to train. If you still want to train, go ahead and use RPE.

[Joe Wilson]

Right, but what about 405x3 versus 395x3? If I had used RPE on my last workout, I would have sandbagged my top set by almost 10%. Surely that makes a difference.

405->395 is almost 10%? I think you mean 2.5%.

RPE doesn’t allow lifters to know their excess capability, how much they overshot a rep by, or how much strength has increased before testing, either. I don’t see how anyone can know these things without testing them. But that’s besides the point. What does it add? If I’m doing 250 fewer pounds of tonnage than I could (or more than I ought to) on volume day, what do I get in return for that sacrifice? Will my progress be steadier? Will I improve faster? Will my form be more consistent? If not, why would I make this change?

It helps you manage fatigue, burnout, and to some degree, technique, if you are making adjustments to the load based on your actual performance that day. Again, whether you want to use RPE specifically or something else is irrelevant.

And to borrow from another argument - how do you miss an RPE 8 squat? How does a lifter on a three-month RPE program know that it is not working unless he crashes out of it? What do we get back for pulling useful data and accuracy out of our training that makes it better for us to do so?

You don't miss an RPE 8 squat, but sure, you could miss what you think will be an RPE 8 squat if you suck at judging your performance. I agree that this is obviously a big issue for new lifters. However, like anything else, you get better at it over time. I don't see why there is so much resistance to that idea. Video your lifts. Monitor your bar speed. Learn from mistakes and failed sets. If you really wanted to, I suppose you could throw in an AMRAP set or something every so often to actually evaluate how close you are. And if you don't get better at evaluating RPE over time, then do something else. But to not even try it is silly.

And a 3% decrease in weight suddenly feels significantly lighter?

Yes. It will still be hard, but could be the difference between you getting a tough 3x5 and missing reps on your first set. If you want an SS-approved example of small percentages making a difference: backoff sets.

Shitty days in the gym happen. But shitty days probably can't be counted as training as they don't serve as a step in the training process. Make sure you don't have a shitty day every other time and you'll be fine. If your job doesn't allow you to eat and sleep then your job doesn't allow you to train. If you still want to train, go ahead and use RPE.

You really think that training with a slightly modified bar weight completely negates all training effect? I certainly don't, but it could be the difference between challenging sets and grinding/missing reps. What about the inverse, i.e. you do your prescribed bar weight for the day and it's easier than expected. Is that session now useless because you could have put a little more weight on the bar that day?

[Ivan Stepic]

You really think that training with a slightly modified bar weight completely negates all training effect? I certainly don't, but it could be the difference between challenging sets and grinding/missing reps.

It doesn't completely negate the training effect but you are also not getting a training effect you would get if you've recovered and performed as planned. 300 is a worse source of stress than 315 if your goal is to squat 320. You think that 305 and 315 are approximately the same and that they produce the same training effect. I think that the lower weight produces less training effect than you think.

What about the inverse, i.e. you do your prescribed bar weight for the day and it's easier than expected. Is that session now useless because you could have put a little more weight on the bar that day?

No.

[Ivan Stepic]

And I gotta say you're hyperbolizing a bit. A difference between missing reps and doing sets across is more than 3% in most cases.

And I know where you're going with this. Whoever told you that you HAVE to do prescribed volume because otherwise you will detrain in work capacity is missinformed. My point is that, when you have a shitty day, it doesn't matter what you do. You can reduce the weight and do the volume or you can reduce the volume and do the same weight or something in the middle. When you get home, evaluate your training history, life stress and recovery and make a good decision.

I've heard all the arguments for RPE and my conclusion is that it is vastly overrated. When you ask people why are they using RPE in the first place, you are going to get a vague answer. And that is probably because young guys like me get easily impressed, as Rip said. I was in that camp too.

[Joe Wilson]

And I gotta say you're hyperbolizing a bit. A difference between missing reps and doing sets across is more than 3% in most cases.

OK, you got me - it could be 4%, maybe 5%. Point being that it's likely not 10 or 20 or 25% (in which case I would agree that there is some kind of outside stress or recovery issue that needs to be managed), nor is it just doing a ton of junk volume with light weights. That would be hyperbolizing a bit, IMO.

Again, look at how backoff sets are structured if you need an SS-approved example.

And I know where you're going with this. Whoever told you that you HAVE to do prescribed volume because otherwise you will detrain in work capacity is missinformed. My point is that, when you have a shitty day, it doesn't matter what you do. You can reduce the weight and do the volume or you can reduce the volume and do the same weight or something in the middle. When you get home, evaluate your training history, life stress and recovery and make a good decision.

I don't think that e.g. just doing one heavy set is equivalent to doing three or four slightly less heavy sets. Again, slightly - we are talking a few % here, not 10 or 20%. But since we have no way to actually quantify whether they are or aren't equivalent, I suspect neither of us will likely be convinced to concede this point.

I've heard all the arguments for RPE and my conclusion is that it is vastly overrated. When you ask people why are they using RPE in the first place, you are going to get a vague answer. And that is probably because young guys like me get easily impressed, as Rip said. I was in that camp too.

Once again the point isn't to use RPE specifically, but some kind autoregulation. I happen to like RPE, but there are other methods: heavy top set + backoffs, amraps, fatigue %s, etc.

[A Schenck]

Right, but what about 405x3 versus 395x3? If I had used RPE on my last workout, I would have sandbagged my top set by almost 10%. Surely that makes a difference.

How much of a difference? And what are the tradeoffs for chasing that difference? Page 110 of my 3rd edition 1st printing of Practical Programming says the following about selecting intensity for an intermediate lifter:
Performance can be evaluated by titrating loads to account for variation, judging today's "Relative Maximum" is possible, this judgement "is perhaps the most valuable input into the lifter's programming", and that bad things can happen if you "try to force the regularly scheduled heavy day on an unrecovered geezer"

Page 121 of the same printing makes it very clear that an athlete on TM should seek to avoid failure on intensity day and should modify reps before failure occurs whenever possible.

I'm not going to say that Rip and Andy meant to recommend RPE but were to stubborn too say it outright. But it is clear that they are recommending the value of regulating intensity and avoiding failure. This recommendation doesn't jive with your idea that doping intensity on your work sets occasionally will result in backwards progress.

[A Schenck]

If your performance is wildly oscillating day to day, that means you are fucking around in the gym (trying out new stuff and randomly changing variables) or you are not taking care of your recovery which is to a large extent objective.

How often and by how much do you think people on RPE are moving there planned work set weights?

When you ask people why are they using RPE in the first place, you are going to get a vague answer.

Ask me.

[Ivan Stepic]

How often and by how much do you think people on RPE are moving there planned work set weights?

Ask me.

Enlighten me on both matters, please.