Chin-ups - frequency, method?

[PDC]

BW: 169
Squat:190x5x3
Press: 95x5x3
Deadlift: 195x5
Bench: 115x5x3
Power Clean:105x3x5

So I tried to add chin-ups to to the end of the B workout(squats, bench, power cleans), and it hasnt been going too well. I can't do a single rep. Rip recommends to use bands if necessary, otherwise get the movement started with a jump and then lower yourself slowly on the negative. I tried this but I had a hard time limiting the jump to just what was necessary, and to boot I felt really stupid, especially when the make-shift platform I had to allow my shortie self to reach the bar collapsed. In hindsight, maybe I should have had it a little lower to prevent so much knee bend with not much distance to cover.

My gym also has an assisted pull-up machine, and Rip has that video pointing out the usefulness of a leg press machine, for the purpose of people that cannot even do body weight squats, so I figured hey, this seems like a similar situation. However I'm not making any progress. I actually did worse yesterday than my previous workout, with 5/3/2 reps with 55lbs of assistance, vs. 5/4/3 last time.

I've done some research and a lot of people seem to recommend a high volume to get started, nobody recommends an assisted machine, some people recommend against it.

My question: should I do a crapton of jump chin-ups, trying to use just the right amount of jump, followed by a slow-as-possible negative, or use the machine? Maybe I need to reduce it to -70 and get 3x10 with that, and make the next jump when I can get 3x10 with the new weight? My form is pretty bad with the -55, having trouble staying close to the bar.

Should I do higher frequency to start, just to get myself up to an appreciable amount of chin-ups? For example, at the end of both A and B workouts? What about rest days? My gut tells me doing them on rest days would be a bad idea, but greasing the groove seems to be a popular method.

[Cluttered]

I had really good results using band assisted chin-ups at the end of every workout. Using assistance also allows you to ramp your sets. For example, you could do one set of -55 lbs, followed by two with -70. One or two workouts later you could switch to doing your first two with -55 lbs followed by one with -70 lbs. That will allow you to still work heavier on your first set(s) while getting enough volume in on the back off sets. If you can do 8+ reps on any set then just make another set heavier. Good luck!

[PDC]

I had really good results using band assisted chin-ups at the end of every workout. Using assistance also allows you to ramp your sets. For example, you could do one set of -55 lbs, followed by two with -70. One or two workouts later you could switch to doing your first two with -55 lbs followed by one with -70 lbs. That will allow you to still work heavier on your first set(s) while getting enough volume in on the back off sets. If you can do 8+ reps on any set then just make another set heavier. Good luck!

Thanks! I'll try that.

[FatButWeak]

age 42; 6;4"; 225lbs

squat: 247.5x5x3sets
Bench: 235x5x3
Dead: 295x5x3
Press: 145x5x3
Clean: 160x5x3
Curls: 95 x 6,6,8,8,

Here's how I earned my first chinups since I was 25 and weighed 195 pounds:

Before attempting chins, I had been doing lat pull downs. I typically warmed up, then did three sets of ten, using a weight considerably less than my bodyweight, but fairly heavy, taking an overhand "pullup" style grip, but not too wide. About 2/3 bodyweight. Rip says this does not increase anyones pullup ability, but I disagree. My pull downs were done as the last exercise on my sq-bench-deadlift day. Possibly relevant is that I have been eating a ketogenic diet since last October and have slowly lost weight from a high of 341 to my current 225.

On July 28, 2012 at a bodyweight of 236 I started doing partial chinups. I took a hammer grip approach (midway between a chinup and a pullup - because thats what felt strongest) and did 1 set of 5 partials - by partial I mean instead of a dead hang I went down about 3/4 or 4/5 of the way. I also did them like deadlifts - I would do one, then stand there keeping my hands on the chin bar (I am tall and standing with my legs straight allowed me to keep my hands on the bar) rest a beat (1 or 2 seconds), then do another one. I called them "dead chins" since each rep was started with no swing, sway, kip or rebound but with me standing straight on my heels, even though my arms were only 3/4 or 4/5 extended. I did this because I wanted a consistent, scientific measurement of my depth on each and every rep (which would not have been able to occur if I had just bent my knees). I made sure to have my legs straight and hit my heels to the ground and to come up without doing a "push" or a jump. No cheating, other than my 3/4 - 4/5 range of motion.

After that first day I started doing 4 sets of 5. I did them on my "workout B' days, when I squat-bench & deadlift.

After about one month of these chin deads, at a bodyweight of 230 I did 5 sets of 5. A PR. I then went over to the tall power rack and did one full, dead hang hammer grip chinup. I rested a few minutes, then did one full dead hang pullup. SUCCESSS!!!

Now I do 10 sets of 2 chinups as accessory work. From a dead using a hang hammer grip, cause that's where I feel strongest. Every workout I add another rep so that I am now doing ten sets that look like this: 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3. Once I can do 10 sets of five I am going to test my one rep max. Im hoping for ten.

Chinups are now myf avorite part of my training (God knows it ain't squatting!)

The last time I was able to do a full pullup was in 1996 when I weighed about 195 pounds and was 26 years old.

My point is that I definetly gained strnegth and chinup ability doing a partial range of motion. Now I can start doing full depth, dead hang chinups. So go ahead. Do some partial chins. They might work.

[spiderbro]

I have no experience with machine assisted chins, but a few friends of mine used to do lat pulldowns and/or chins with one leg on a bench assisting the movement. They did them for maybe two months and saw very little increase in their actual chinning abilities. After that I made them do negative chins 5x1 (five sets of one rep) as recommended in the 20 pull-ups program and after three weeks the other was able to do one clean chin-up.

I had them jump off a bench straight to the high position of the chin-up without even trying to pull themselves up and made them do the negatives very slowly, taking at least 5 seconds a rep - concentrating on the upper portion of the movement, unlike they naturally did in the beginning.

Did them around every other workout.

I myself am doing pretty much the advanced novice program, so bw pull-ups 3x(f-2) (i hate doing to failure) on mondays and 3x5 weighted chins on 1,25kg LP on fridays. Face Pulls on wednesdays, I love them.

[Greg Esres]

The lat pulldown and the assisted pull-up machine got me about 80% of the way to doing a pull-up and I seemed close to a plateau for many weeks. So I started trying real pull-ups and made more progress. First session I did several 1/2 pullups, next couple of sessions several 3/4 pull ups, and then finally a full one. Right now, I can do four pull-ups.

I seemed to make a lot faster progress when attempting real pull-ups as compared to using the machines, even when I was able to only achieve a partial range of motion.

[PDC]

The lat pulldown and the assisted pull-up machine got me about 80% of the way to doing a pull-up and I seemed close to a plateau for many weeks. So I started trying real pull-ups and made more progress. First session I did several 1/2 pullups, next couple of sessions several 3/4 pull ups, and then finally a full one. Right now, I can do four pull-ups.

I seemed to make a lot faster progress when attempting real pull-ups as compared to using the machines, even when I was able to only achieve a partial range of motion.

See this was my thought..maybe I should just do a higher volume but do the negatives and attempt a chin-up every time I do them, until I can do one. I mean, I can't really overtrain right? Not at this stage. Just trash my lats and biceps 3x a week, and maybe in a month I'll get that first real chin-up.

[Tamara Reynolds]

I am a girl and fat and haven't done chins in months, and I did this today. Y'all need to stop making excuses.

[Greg Esres]

I'm not really sold on the negatives thing. At least one of my books says that research indicates that eccentric exercises don't help much with concentric exercises, and I can't tell that it helped me much. Data point of one. Doing partials, I went from 1/2 pullup to 1 in just a couple of weeks. Kinda funny, but real pull-ups seem easier than the assisted ones or the lat pull down, even though I can't do very many. That seems to suggest the mechanics aren't identical.

[Tamara Reynolds]

I'm not really sold on the negatives thing. At least one of my books says that research indicates that eccentric exercises don't help much with concentric exercises, and I can't tell that it helped me much. Data point of one. Doing partials, I went from 1/2 pullup to 1 in just a couple of weeks. Kinda funny, but real pull-ups seem easier than the assisted ones or the lat pull down, even though I can't do very many. That seems to suggest the mechanics aren't identical.

It took you WEEKS to do that. To go from 1/2 to 1. You are wasting your time. My people increase their pullups WAY MORE than that doing what I tell them to do. I'll let you know exactly how people increased their pullups this month on the 4 week challenge. I bet I will end up with close to 20.

Also, negatives are a very small part of my chinup programming. The goal is to get people to 1 full chinup and then they stop all assistance and just knock out singles. Once you have a full chinup, this is the only way to go. Really.

For anyone who wants to listen to me, we use the RAGE pullup assist at my gym: http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Fitness-P...pull+up+assist