Trap bar

[J Luke]

Whats your guys take on using the trap/deadlift bar for deadlifting.

[Nick Delgadillo]

I've never had to substitute a trap bar for any reason whatsoever. It's suboptimal for our purposes. My take is that personal trainers and crappy strength coaches love these things because it takes zero skill to "coach" and trainees love them because they're easy.

[Michael Wolf]

I've used it in a few very specialized cases with clients who couldn't deadlift for one reason or another. It's rare, but it happens. However, for 99.9% of people, it's exactly what Coach Nikolai said: an excuse for trainers and "strength coaches" not to learn how to coach a deadlift.

[jkolt]

Sometimes its fun to disagree.

I get that the trap bar is not the classic straight bar DL. But aren't we just being a little stingy on this one? Heavy loads, weighted human movements, full range of motion, low back control...aren't all these things more or less the same in the trap bar and straight bar DL.

The only argument against the trap bar that ever made even a little sense to me is that at the top its not stabilized against the legs. But weight isn't "stabilized against the legs" in a farmers walk either. Shit hangs from the hands pretty well without being stabilized, gravity and anatomy being what they are.

I will grant that if a trap bar is used to disguise lack of coaching expertise, then that is a bad outcome. But how many trainees would even be equipped to make such a determination?

[Michael Wolf]

I get that the trap bar is not the classic straight bar DL. But aren't we just being a little stingy on this one? Heavy loads, weighted human movements, full range of motion, low back control...aren't all these things more or less the same in the trap bar and straight bar DL.

I'm not sure if you really do get this. Yes, the trap bar is certainly better than not pulling anything heavy from the ground at all. However, that's a false dichotomy. Since the combination of squat and deadlift doesn't really leave anything out that the trap bar more effectively fills in, why would someone who can squat and deadlift use it?

Look, if an advanced lifter wants to use the trap bar as a tertiary or quaternary option to get in some training volume to help get his deadlift from 750 to 800, I don't know that it's the most efficient option but that person has earned the right to decide for himself. That scenario is not really what people who ask this question have in mind.

I will grant that if a trap bar is used to disguise lack of coaching expertise, then that is a bad outcome.

And that is usually how and why they are used, in my experience. As a 'safer' alternative to the deadlift, by people who don't know how to teach the deadlift.

[MBasic]

Sometimes its fun to disagree.

this has been beat to death.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...6-hex-bar.html

The only argument against the trap bar that ever made even a little sense to me is that at the top its not stabilized against the legs. But weight isn't "stabilized against the legs" in a farmers walk either. Shit hangs from the hands pretty well without being stabilized, gravity and anatomy being what they are.

Would you do a 1RM w/ a farmer's walk? . . .like a weight so heavy you could only take two steps with.
On my heavy 1RM DL's . . .I sometimes get the "shakes" half way up, like an earthquake. This, combine with swinging effect would be bad. . . .esp for a noob.

[jkolt]

[QUOTE=Michael Wolf;1129495]Since the combination of squat and deadlift doesn't really leave anything out that the trap bar more effectively fills in, why would someone who can squat and deadlift use it?]

I'm not suggesting the trap bar DL is a better lift than the straight bar. But is there anything about the trap bar DL itself that makes it inferior mechanically or as a training exercise versus the straight bar deadlift? Using the criteria this board often uses to evaluate effective exercise, I can't think of a good reason its inferior as a training movement. The lifts appear pretty equally matched.

I concede that the trap bar is usually a crutch and that my argument could look like I'm shilling for no-nothing trainers. BUT, despite the idiotic reasons most trainers use to justify trap bar over straight bar, the costs of idiocy IN THIS CASE are low. The trainer's ignorance will probably cause problems somewhere else, but in this case, not so much.

Furthermore, can anything positive be said about the neutral grip position of the trap bar DL? Mixed grip on the straight bar can cause some people shoulder issues, some trainees suck at using straps, and for reasons I don't totally understand, it seems easier to hang on to heavier loads held with neutral grip (ala farmers walks). Thoughts?

[Michael Wolf]

this has been beat to death.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...6-hex-bar.html


Would you do a 1RM w/ a farmer's walk? . . .like a weight so heavy you could only take two steps with.
On my heavy 1RM DL's . . .I sometimes get the "shakes" half way up, like an earthquake. This, combine with swinging effect would be bad. . . .esp for a noob.

And Here are two more threads from just the past few weeks; this has been discussed much already: Question about trap bar deadlift and Hex Bar Deadlift...

I'm not suggesting the trap bar DL is a better lift than the straight bar. But is there anything about the trap bar DL itself that makes it inferior mechanically or as a training exercise versus the straight bar deadlift? Using the criteria this board often uses to evaluate effective exercise, I can't think of a good reason its inferior as a training movement. The lifts appear pretty equally matched.

As has already been mentioned, the tendency to pendulum swing can be very problematic at very heavy weights. And the difference in starting position makes it a poorer exercise for training of the hip extensors and spinal erectors, while the possible gain in quad is already covered much more effectively, through a longer range of motion (and with the potential to use the stretch reflex) with the squat.

I concede that the trap bar is usually a crutch and that my argument could look like I'm shilling for no-nothing trainers. BUT, despite the idiotic reasons most trainers use to justify trap bar over straight bar, the costs of idiocy IN THIS CASE are low. The trainer's ignorance will probably cause problems somewhere else, but in this case, not so much.

I don't understand why you keep pushing so hard for the trap bar. Yes, there are plenty of worse ways in which the incompetence of personal trainers and strength coaches can
present itself. The marginal difference between, say, "Squats" being high bar 1/4 squats looking up vs proper squats to depth is greater than "Deadlifts" being trap bar vs actual deadlifts. No one is calling the trap bar utterly useless. We're saying that the combination of properly performed and programmed squats and (actual) deadlifts is better and covers the training adaptations that the trap bar will provide, thus rendering it unnecessary as a primary training movement. Add to that the pendulum problem at really heavy weights, and there ya go.

Furthermore, can anything positive be said about the neutral grip position of the trap bar DL? Mixed grip on the straight bar can cause some people shoulder issues, some trainees suck at using straps, and for reasons I don't totally understand, it seems easier to hang on to heavier loads held with neutral grip (ala farmers walks). Thoughts?

I adapted myself to the hook grip a few years ago, so I could pull more heavy deadlifts without subjecting myself to the issues that mixed grip can cause. I sucked at using straps, and hated them. Until very recently, actually. I learned how to do it because it was necessary for my training. This is what people who train do.

[jkolt]

I'm harping on this because, as you say, the marginal difference between trap bar and straight bar deadlifts appears small, and optimality is important. I get the pendulum point. Shaking with weights are bad mmkay. Better to have the bar against the leg if we can.

I don't get the starting position point. If a trap bar and a straight bar had equal heights, wouldn't the starting position be more or less the same? I suppose if we use a trap bar with handles, that would set the back at a higher angle, which might take some of the ROM out, and limit the training effect. Is that it?

[ChessGuy]

Folks don't need to be so dogmatic. Not everyone has space for a 7' bar. Not everyone can safely perform squats with the equipment constraints they may have at the moment.

I find it a good introduction to strength training. I also have found that many women prefer it to long bars, at least initially.

if someone uses the trap bar for squats, within 2 weeks they will outgrow it since grip strength will lag squat strength.