Gymnastics Training and Strength Training Question.

[David.Lewis]

Coach,

Please bear with me, there is a question at the end. I've tried searching the forums for this. If I missed it, I'm sorry.

Anyway, an interesting quote I saw recently from Coach Sommers regarding arm strength and bench pressing:

"Yes, this is absolutely correct. Regardless of how strong your bench may be, if the proper straight arm strength progressions have not been adhered to and meticulously followed, the super strong bench presser will be no closer to a planche than your average joe who struggles with bodyweight."

I've seen this kind of thing before, where gymnasts will say that they can make the transition to weight training better than a BB or strength-oriented athlete can make the transition to gymnastics.

Usually, this goes something like this: a gymnast who can do an iron cross can bench 2x his bodyweight but a powerlifter or BB can't typically do an iron cross.

The implication is that gymnastics gives you a superior power-to-weight ratio than barbell training. Another implication (sometimes stated explicitly) is that gymnastics training builds stronger tendons and ligaments and that a *danger* in barbell training is growing muscle faster than T&Ls can adapt.

What are your thoughts on all this, if any? Why would Sommers say something like this? And, do you think there's any value in gymnastics for strength? Sommers claims to have trained ~130-140lb athletes in gymnastics who, without ever having touched a barbell before, could do raw deadlifts starting at 400lbs or something crazy like that. Do you think he's B.S.'ing? Is this typical? Is there a "catch 22" and if so, what is it?

Thanks.

[John Hanley]

I think you need to think about the physics of being short.

[atb5161]

I think you need to think about the physics of being short.

I'm curious Hanley, are you implying that being short makes gymnastics strength positions easy, or that being short makes deadlifts easy? I'm assuming the latter, but just wanted to double check.

As for the OP, I think I've seen that interview with Sommers. While I like Chris and mostly agree with him, making the strength comparison between gymnastics and barbell movements is kind of lame. Strength movements in gymnastics load the levers, joints, and tendons in ways that a barbell doesn't. So yeah, a barbell trainee is going to have issues with an iron cross. Just like a barbell trainee is going to have issues excelling at the high jump, because they haven't trained their body that way.

Moderate strength is a general adaptation, while gymnastics positions are a specific one. I think a more important question is, if we start getting into the heavy weights where specific training is required (600-700lb deadlifts?), is gymnastics still a useful training stimulus? (no, its not)

[Adam Skillin]

Are there really elite gymnasts who don't even lift?

[Cody]

I'm curious Hanley, are you implying that being short makes gymnastics strength positions easy, or that being short makes deadlifts easy? I'm assuming the latter, but just wanted to double check.

Both of the above are true. Also, being light makes bodyweight multipliers bigger (this is the entire reason for the Wilks or Schwartz formulas).

Edit: should be "easier than if they were tall," not just "easy."

[atb5161]

Edit: should be "easier than if they were tall," not just "easy."

I was about to unleash the fury...I agree though, being short makes them "easier", but no where near 'easy'.

If anyone wants proof, try and hold a straight arm tucked planche on some parallettes for 10 seconds.

[John Hanley]

I was about to unleash the fury...I agree though, being short makes them "easier", but no where near 'easy'.

If anyone wants proof, try and hold a straight arm tucked planche on some parallettes for 10 seconds.

I don't give a fuck about what short men can do with their own bodies. Sorry I'm not sorry. Unleash the fury.

[boot29342342]

The implication is that gymnastics gives you a superior power-to-weight ratio than barbell training. Another implication (sometimes stated explicitly) is that gymnastics training builds stronger tendons and ligaments and that a *danger* in barbell training is growing muscle faster than T&Ls can adapt.

Being short is always an advantage in bw strength exercises. Having broad shoulders and shorter arms (which elite gymnasts tend to have) will also help with benching. Refs on shorter arm length:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...40419108729855

But your tendon-and-ligament comment is actually about survivor bias. The types of people who succeed in a sport like this tend to be better at healing and perhaps less injury-prone in the first place than the kinds of people who don't make it to the elite level. Even basic competence (iron cross, say) requires good shoulder strength--which again facilitates benching.

[atb5161]

I don't give a fuck about what short men can do with their own bodies.

Neat.

Unleash the fury.

This was directed at Cody's pre-edit implication that being short makes gymnastic strength positions easy. His edit cleared it up.

[John Hanley]

This was directed at Cody's pre-edit implication that being short makes gymnastic strength positions easy. His edit cleared it up.

Roger. Hugs.