Losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time

[spacediver]

Figured I'd post here in repetitive inquiries before bugging Rip about it. I've often heard Rip say that it's physiologically impossible to gain muscle while losing fat. The logic is roughly as follows:

Your body is either in an anabolic or a catabolic state. In an anabolic state, you will gain both muscle and fat. Yes, you can skew the proportions, but you can't undergo an anabolic and catabolic process at the same time.

If this is true, how does one explain the following study, where overweight police officers who underwent resistance training and a protein diet lost fat and gained muscle, after 12 weeks? Full paper here, discussion here.

[MBasic]

They were outta shape 27% BF cops, who sounds like they lost all their gains....could see/believe a legitimate recomp (gain muscle/lose fat simultaneously) in this situation.....they probably strength trained at one time too(long ago). Only over 12 weeks. I don't think Rip would be surprised.

[spacediver]

yes, but according to the logic that Rip lays out in his defense of the claim, it's still physiologically impossible, even for a rank novice or someone regaining lost gains.

[mrflibble]

yes, but according to the logic that Rip lays out in his defense of the claim, it's still physiologically impossible, even for a rank novice or someone regaining lost gains.

You're arguing against a strawman, not what Rip has actually said.

[spacediver]

You're arguing against a strawman, not what Rip has actually said.

This may be true. I'll have to dig up the most recent place I heard him say this (or saw it written).

[John Hanley]

If this is true

It's not.

I vaguely recall a section of Mr. R's book, wherein he discusses the phenomenon of fat people people slimming down as they get stronger.

[spacediver]

From the recent lecture at St. Vincent College, PA

"When you are gaining.. when you're trying to gain muscle mass, the process by which muscle is accumulated will also cause some fat to accumulate. It's unavoidable". (around 1 hr 7 min).

I remember him saying something to that effect in a recent podcast or interview or something, though maybe that's a false memory.

[mrflibble]

From the recent lecture at St. Vincent College, PA

"When you are gaining.. when you're trying to gain muscle mass, the process by which muscle is accumulated will also cause some fat to accumulate. It's unavoidable". (around 1 hr 7 min).

I remember him saying something to that effect in a recent podcast or interview or something, though maybe that's a false memory.

It may be unintentional, but you're not coming across as sincerely trying to learn, but cherry picking shit out of context and trying to play gotcha! It's a real dickhead move.

At 1 hr 5 min he talks about an underweight male eating 1800-2000 calories a day.

At 1 hr 6 min 46s he says "Here's the deal if you're 5 11, 155 pounds and 10% bodyfat and over the course of 9 months get to 205 pounds and 15% bodyfat you didn't get fat"

He's NOT talking about untrained or detrained fat or obese novices who effectively already have their necessary calorie surplus storage in adipose.

Stop being fucktard and read the clarification article.

[chrisd]

That's a very small study. Small enough to give the figures for all individual participants, but they don't. Reductio ad absurdem:

In a study of two subjects, subject A lost 10kg fat and lost 2kg muscle,
subject B gained 5kg muscle and 5kg fat.

Therefore the mean muscle mass gain was 1.5kg and the mean fat loss was 2.5kg.

The body composition tests were done with skin fold calipers, alone. The study notes that this may be a problem.

The reported changes are not very big. The main thrust of the study appears to be a comparison of casein and whey protein. The differences between the two appear to be massive.

When you are dealing with results like 4.2±9 it's time to ask what you are really looking at.

Anyways, as far as I am aware, the Starting Strength position is that for optimal strength gains, there will be some gain in fat mass, but that overall %body fat will reduce as lean mass increases.

The fact that some people see this as an excuse to stuff themselves with pies is not the fault of the programme. PPST3 the 'The overweight trainee' covers this.

[MBasic]

. . .also, it would seem like the participants were in a worse case scenario (sort of) as far as diet before hand. Also, it said they were "active", just cause they were in fact police officers. But I don't know about that, unless they were bike-cops, or had a street/walking patrol . . .which is pretty rare. Bet they were borderline sedentary, hence already being overweight/highish BF%/etc.

If I'm reading this right, they were eating way under "maintenance" before hand, and real low on protein. Then, all of the sudden, dramatic switching of gears to much more protein, weight training, etc . . . and they prob lifted before (when younger).

So yeah I could see a brief change in muscle to fat ratio.
But what others said: calipers?
How do you measure lean'mass' . . .some water retention/shedding here or there?
(glycogen in muscle, etc)

Also, was over 12 weeks, you'd have to look at the fat to muscle change over time . . .was 'it' the condensed into a little segment of the twelves weeks. What I'm getting at, is a doubt this "metamorphosis" slowly consistently went on during the entire 12 weeks.
Maybe then gained a little more muscle first, and then slowly shed fat second.

Now, if it continued (weeks 13-20), comes the part where muscle and fat are lost (maybe at different rates) . . .strength stagnates and/or goes backwards.