New T Nation article.... db press > bb press

[*Dave*]

Would love to hear your thoughts on these statements Rip.



''Whether it's a floor press, flat bench, incline, standing press, Z press, or anything I've left out, having integrity at the elbow joint makes for a much more user-friendly pattern.

We all know the surface stuff – dumbbell pressing is cool because it encourages more stability at the shoulder and makes each side "pull its own weight," so to speak.

But all that aside, the ability to play with the elbow in turn affects the position the shoulder is in at the time we press. It would be a wise move – especially if you fall into an acromion category discussed above – to slip into a grip (using dumbbells) that's closer to neutral when performing your dumbbell bench and overhead pressing.

This way the shoulder can roll back farther behind the clavicle where it belongs and save you from unwanted joint pain. The bar path isn't fixed either. Finishing with a narrower grip while neutral can also encourage more arm activation, especially depending on the kind of press you're doing.

Needless to say, if I were to choose one kind of pressing for life, I'd be on board with dumbbell pressing.

Take-Home Point: Dumbbell pressing beats barbell pressing.''

I used to love reading their articles but the more I read the more everyone who writes for them just contradicts one another.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I see that this is a direct cut-and-paste from the article, so you haven't left out anything that would make these statements more understandable. First, what does "integrity at the elbow joint" actually mean, and how is this affected by the use of dumbbells vs. barbells? This is not explained, and I don't understand.

Then, the statement "dumbbell pressing is cool because it encourages more stability at the shoulder and makes each side 'pull its own weight,' so to speak" implies that a barbell does not encourage sufficient shoulder stability, which is odd because I've seen raw 600-pound benches and I didn't notice any shoulder instability. And I haven't noticed any shoulder instability in the rather common 400-pound benches either. We have all watched the video of Serge Redding pressing 502, with a breathtaking lack of instability. I teach barbell training to people all over the country all year, and one of the very first things we teach is HOW TO BE STABLE UNDER THE BAR, one of the many responsibilities of the coach. Everyone seems to learn this pretty well, and then they go home and work on it some more. On the other hand, I haven't ever seen a pair of 300-pound dumbbells benched, and I guess maybe the fact that they'd be catastrophically unstable might be a factor. As for each side pulling its own weight, barbells tend to do this as well. When you don't, the bar becomes "uneven" or "not level", something even a lay person can detect, and the first thing a coach would address.

This: "But all that aside, the ability to play with the elbow in turn affects the position the shoulder is in at the time we press." is okay, if not a bit cryptic. But the following statement: "It would be a wise move – especially if you fall into an acromion category discussed above – to slip into a grip (using dumbbells) that's closer to neutral when performing your dumbbell bench and overhead pressing." implies that the inability of the wrist to supinate a little with a barbell has something to do with the position of abduction of the shoulder. A moment's reflection upon the differences in abduction evidenced by shirted powerlifters vs. the elbow position we advocate would cause you to conclude that wrist position and humeral abduction are separate, non-dependent variables. Or maybe I don't understand the point, because "neutral" hasn't been defined in this context. I can stand with dumbbells in my hands and vary my forearm position from full supination to full pronation with only about 20 degrees of humeral ab/adduction variation.

"This way the shoulder can roll back farther behind the clavicle where it belongs and save you from unwanted joint pain." Somebody's going to have to explain what this means, because I have no idea how "the shoulder" gets behind the clavicle, or why "it belongs" there.

"The bar path isn't fixed either. Finishing with a narrower grip while neutral can also encourage more arm activation, especially depending on the kind of press you're doing." I have no idea what this means because, again, it's cryptic. It doesn't actually mean anything definite. Now, it might mean that he thinks the "bar path" -- we're using dumbbells, right? -- can converge towards the top, IOW the dumbbells can be closer together at lockout than they are at the bottom. They have to be, because each dumbbell must balance above each shoulder joint at the top, and each dumbbell must be a little wider than this at the bottom due to the length of the humerus and the need to keep forearms vertical throughout the motion. "Arm activation" is not really a technical term, so I'm not prepared to interpret it.

But this is the nugget: "Needless to say, if I were to choose one kind of pressing for life, I'd be on board with dumbbell pressing." This is just fine if all you want to do is exercise. Just come in the gym and mess around with some pushups and dumbbells and do some movements that make you sweaty, tired, and maybe even sore. But this is not training, and we train -- we don't exercise. As I have discussed many times, dumbbells are wonderful for assistance work, but they do not lend themselves to being trained, for reasons you can look up on this board.

[*Dave*]

Thanks for taking the time to do that Rip




p.s. please come to the UK sometime.

[Kjeld]

Did KStar write this article?

[LudwigVan]

Did KStar write this article?

Haha, that was exactly my thought on reading the quoted material. Something about the way the all words make sense separately, but not when put together in that order.

[madmaxaus]

The 'neutral' position has been described terribly. I have been trialing the bench press with what the author describes as a 'neutral' position, it aggravates my shoulder less than standard bench (post clavicle resection). However, I do this for rehab purposes, not because I believe it to be a better way to train.

What I (think) the author is trying to describe has very little to do with a netural position at the wrist, as Rip said, whether the grip is pronated or neutral, the shoulder is still abducting. The position I'm imagining 'neutral' to be, involves the elbow to be close to the body, and instead of the elbow pointing laterally away from the body, it would point toward the feet. This has very little to do with forearm or wrist position and can probably be more accurately described as glenohumeral position. This still doesn't change much, as Rip said 10 or 20 degrees, but it works for me at the moment.

This way the shoulder can roll back farther behind the clavicle where it belongs and save you from unwanted joint pain.

Unfortunately I have no idea what this means, unless the author is referring to position of the scapula, and referring to the acromioclavicular joint, he alluded to the acromion before? I have no idea why you would want anything to roll back behind the clavicle though, someone else can guess at that.