Coach Baker: Volume for Lifters Over 40

[unebch]

Andy, I recently bought your book Strength Training after 40 (I'm 43 years old) and a lot of what you say in that book makes sense in terms of decreasing the volume, but keeping the intensity high for older lifters.
However, I also follow Starting Strength coaches Feigenbaum and Baracki and they say that older athletes need more volume to progress just like younger lifters. I respect both camps, but obviously both philosophies can't be correct, either older lifters should do less volume, or they shouldn't. Do you base your philosophy on this subject through trial and error with older lifters? Is it possible that Feigenbaum and Baracki, being younger guys themselves, just haven't seen the effects of more volume on actual older lifters? I'm just perplexed in the difference of opinion from two camps who seem to know what they are talking about. Just interested in hearing your take/rebuttal to their arguments.

[Andy Baker (KSC)]

I coach clients about 10 hours per day 5 days per week in my gym and have done so for the past 11 years. About 80% of my client base on my roster is between 45-85 years of age. It has been my observation over the past decade plus that sustained long term progress in older clients occurs with an approach that is moderate in volume and preserves intensity.

[TommyGun]

I coach clients about 10 hours per day 5 days per week in my gym and have done so for the past 11 years. About 80% of my client base on my roster is between 45-85 years of age. It has been my observation over the past decade plus that sustained long term progress in older clients occurs with an approach that is moderate in volume and preserves intensity.

Unebch, great question...and Andy, great response as always. i too respect both camps. But at 43 you are likely not quite the target audience for the book. Early 40's you still have some game left, so maybe you can handle the volume. And you may be lucky enough to not have creaky joints and a few minor but nagging injuries. But if you were to plot an age versus volume curve, (my concept just for discussion), you will see that the slope is not linear over time. There is a point at which the additional volume presents more risk than benefit, and the slope (risk increases dramatically and nonlinearly. That point on the graph is different for everyone. All I know is that in my experience (small sample size of n=1) at 51 years old this is the case.

if you are not there yet, be grateful and train hard.

But keep in mind it is not just sets across (volume) that is at issue. For older lifters it is the ability to recover properly that is the issue (in addition to the creaky joints and nagging minor injuries). I view recovery as a spectrum: compare the ability to recover from the same volume between a 22 year old college kid and a 51 year old juggling a couple of teenage kids, a wife who works nights, and two parents in hospice (yes that is me). So just realize the older you get the more difficult it is to recover. Among other things as you get older!

[Thip]

I had been an on line client of Jordan for over a year and also purchased programs from Andy Baker as well as having Andy personalize a program that I could follow. Without a doubt I can say that Andy knows more about training older populations than Feigenbaum and Baracki know at this point in time. They (BBM) believe that you have to be conditioned to be fatigue resistant and dissipate fatigue, by doing more conditioning. News Flash! an aging body can only do so much work in a week. I know because I have been training for quite awhile and I am currently 64.5.

The combination of lifting, conditioning and rest and recovery is very tricky and at my age my hormone profile does not help. Essentially both of those gentleman Feigenbaum and Baracki are young and their product or philosophy is geared to a younger crowd not challenged by the issues of aging. My point of view is that you have to have some volume work as well as intensity and have the ability to endure the work the sets and finish your workout.

If I need some additional help in programming I am going to go back to Andy ,because he has trained enough of my demographic, and his philosophy makes the most sense.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

.... are young and their product or philosophy is geared to a younger crowd not challenged by the issues of aging.

Yeah....

You know, there is just something about actually having a 58 year-old body, with 58 year-old knees, that just clarifies a lot of things about life, the universe, and intermediate programming for Masters.

[Bbinck1]

There are probably significant individual variations but I can tell you that as I approach 50, volume indeed has to be limited to some degree. The question is exactly how much for you as an individual and quantifying that requires some experimentation. For instance I did not make great gains on a 5/3/1 template because i just didn’t lift enough to progress well. I tried classic Texas method before that and as you would expect it was an unmitigated disaster. But, on a modified Texas method based on a 9 day cycle rather than 7 with volume day split, I made more progress in 3 months than I did with a year of I ain’t doing jack shit 5/3/1. So like everything else in life there are some basic principles that are factual, but the degree to which they hold across a population does vary. But really to me that is what makes this endeavor interesting.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

There are probably significant individual variations but I can tell you that as I approach 50, volume indeed has to be limited to some degree. The question is exactly how much for you as an individual and quantifying that requires some experimentation.

This is exactly what we've been saying for some time, and what Andy and I made explicit, over and over again, in The Barbell Prescription.

"Training happens on a individual timeline."

The entire third section of the book is, in essence, the exposition of this philosophy and its practical application. Over and over we make, and have made, the point that intermediate programming requires a high degree of individualization, especially for Masters. We believe we made this point explicit not only in our exposition but in examples.

Of course, it's easier to impeach the caricature of a general principle than it is to attack a nuanced and extensive examination of how this principle is actually applied in a hands-on coaching practice. I'll just leave that right there.

I tried classic Texas method before that and as you would expect it was an unmitigated disaster. But, on a modified Texas method based on a 9 day cycle rather than 7 with volume day split, I made more progress in 3 months than I did with a year of I ain’t doing jack shit 5/3/1.

This reflects our experience nicely. (I don't know if Andy ever uses 5/3/1, but we have a variant of 5/3/1 at Greysteel that works for a few selected athletes, but only with significant modification, including the addition of more squat volume. Can you believe that shit?)

So like everything else in life there are some basic principles that are factual, but the degree to which they hold across a population does vary. But really to me that is what makes this endeavor interesting.

I could not agree more. It's a little like the difference between genotype and phenotype. There's the theoretical "Master"...and then there's the Master in front of you...or in the mirror. Watching how individual Masters evolve after the LP and become increasingly individualized and diverse in their programming is one of the really fascinating things about working with this very diverse and rewarding population.


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[DavidCC]

You know, there is just something about actually having a 58 year-old body, with 58 year-old knees, that just clarifies a lot of things about life, the universe, and intermediate programming for Masters.

Truth!

[jbackos]

I'm going to agree with Andy on this one. My personal anecdotal experience is as follows:

I'm 57 yrs old, 5'=7", and currently at 223 lbs. I'm still dropping weight from 245 in December and trying to get to 198 lb class. I currently compete in powerlifting as a master (55-59) and have a long history of training and competing. Over the last few years I have tried a few different training templates (5/3/1, Westside conjugate, Defranco's westside for skinny bastards, HLM). While they all worked to some degree with westside working best and 5/3/1 working least, the common thread was that the volume was beating me up. The AMRAP sets in 5/3/1 were too much volume + intensity. The DE lower body day recovery was preventing adequate performance on ME lower day, and the frequency of HLM was too much.

I started from scratch and did a 4 day a week LP upper/lower split for a few months and arrived at the following template which combines intensity and down set volume:

Sunday
Close Grip bench - heavy 5, comp. grip down 8, 10, 12
Press - 3 x 5-8
Dumbbell curl - 3 x 8-12
Dumbbell row - 3 x 5-8

Monday
Squat - Cycled 1-5 reps, hibar down 2 x 8
SLDL - 2 x 5 RPE 7
Supinated pulldowns - 2 x 5-8

Wednesday
Bench Press - Cycled 1-5 reps, CG down 8,10,15
Dips - 3 sets
Tricep Pressdown - 3 x 5-15
EZ Curl - 2 x 5-8

Friday
Deadlift - Cycled 1-5, SLDL down 2 x 5, RPE 9
Bentover row - 2 x 5-8 RPE 8
Unilateral leg press - 3 x 8-15
Supinated pulldowns - 2 x 8-15

I find that at my age I can either train at a high intensity/low volume or a low intensity/high volume. I cannot sustain high intensity/high volume for more than one week and cannot sustain medium intensity/high volume for more than three weeks.

[torkins]

I find that at my age I can either train at a high intensity/low volume or a low intensity/high volume. I cannot sustain high intensity/high volume for more than one week and cannot sustain medium intensity/high volume for more than three weeks.

I think you won't find either BBM, SS, or TBP recommending high intensity/high volume or med intensity (define medium?)/high volume programs. BBM wants to actively train up the capacity to do more volume... if you're able to sustain X volume, they're simply saying that long-term development requires you to progressively train your body to sustain more than X over time. The numbers involved depend on the individual, including what is medium or high intensity/volume.

This is exactly what we've been saying for some time, and what Andy and I made explicit, over and over again, in The Barbell Prescription.

"Training happens on a individual timeline."

Since the mantra of BBM is, above all, individual variation, you are in agreement.

You know, there is just something about actually having a 58 year-old body, with 58 year-old knees, that just clarifies a lot of things about life, the universe, and intermediate programming for Masters.

The second quote contradicts the first quote, what use is your personal experience when there's a lot of individual variation? Also, this implies that your younger partner, Andy Baker, wouldn't have this clarity despite his extensive coaching history with the demographic in question.



There are definitely differences in the approaches of TBP and BBM but I don't see the value in caricaturing either side except for rhetorical purposes. You won't find BBM recommending high volume and never working at higher intensity, and likewise you won't find TBP recommending working up to a single once a week per lift and calling it a day.