The top of the squat...

[koreansavage]

So...

I have some confusion regarding the top of the squat. So here are the things I do understand about the top of the squat. The bar is placed directly below of the spine of the scapula, the back is rigid and neutral from top to bottom, knees are in full extension. And of course...the golden rule: mid-foot balance.

I have applied all these to my squat; however, I am not standing up tall at the top of the squat (which seems like a common issue for people who are first learning the squat.) I have heard the cue to stand up at the top of the squat since it appears I do not have enough hip extension, but my question is HOW? I have recently posted a video on the Starting Strength facebook page, and had a discussion with a SSC. He first told me "Stand tall at the beginning of each rep".

I pointed out that the only things I could do to stand up tall while keeping the COM of mid-foot is either use more hip extension, and more ankle dorsiflexion OR by rounding my upper back.

After lots of discussion (on the SS page on FB), he told me "Its certainly possible with adjustments to the thoracic spine but not in any manner that would be useful to you here. If the COM is balanced during this set then no adjustment is necessary."

I do not believe I am a special snowflake, but the form is not making sense in terms of physics for me right now. If anything, my upper back is not tight as it should be. If I squeeze my chest up, and keep my upper back tighter AND have more hip flexion, the COM would be much more behind mid-foot.

Am I missing another piece of info here? Can someone explore this idea with me and clear things up?

[Brent Carter]

While I didn't see the video and am unable to comment on the discussion or your form this image comes to mind:

20160302_600.jpg

So as the barbell gets heavier the COM of the barbell lifter system moves up. There will be a slight angle to the torso as a result of this. That said I have seen plenty of people over do this or round their upper back. Again not sure what the conversation was in reference to but the image above should clarify.

[koreansavage]

While I didn't see the video and am unable to comment on the discussion or your form this image comes to mind:

20160302_600.jpg

So as the barbell gets heavier the COM of the barbell lifter system moves up. There will be a slight angle to the torso as a result of this. That said I have seen plenty of people over do this or round their upper back. Again not sure what the conversation was in reference to but the image above should clarify.

This all makes sense to me, but my question is how does one stand up tall without having the COM go behind midfoot?

At the top of the squat, my upper back is slightly rounded and hips are unlocked too much. Balance is in mid-foot. If I decided to tighten up my back and use more hip extension, the COM would be much more behind mid-foot.

So the picture looks like the human figure has somewhat similar hip extension but different degree of ankle dorsiflexion. Is that what will allow a balanced COM over midfoot?

[Tom Campitelli]

You cannot stand up the same way you would if you did not have a bar on your back. As you and Brent have pointed out, you are either going to have a touch of hip flexion, or a bit of dorsiflexion, or both. However, you don't want too much hip flexion at the top because you are subjecting the back to needless moment force, which will increase fatigue. Let's see your squat video. It could be that what you are doing is just fine.

[koreansavage]

You cannot stand up the same way you would if you did not have a bar on your back. As you and Brent have pointed out, you are either going to have a touch of hip flexion, or a bit of dorsiflexion, or both. However, you don't want too much hip flexion at the top because you are subjecting the back to needless moment force, which will increase fatigue. Let's see your squat video. It could be that what you are doing is just fine.

Thanks Tom,

Here are two squat videos. I know I am doing tempo squats on the second video, but it still shows the top position of the squat. And I also do realize, the first video is filmed from a gopro and has distortion created from the fish-eye lens, but I think for viewing the top position of the squat, it will do.

For the first video I don't think I stood up tall because: 1) The bar may have been a tad lower than where it needed to be and 2) it would theoretically make creating the back angle more easily (which I thought during the set, but is obviously not the correct fix)

For the second video, I widened my stance out about 1- 1.5 inches, brought in grip in 1 finger width (helped find bar positioning a whole lot more confidently), and used more hip flexion and dorisflexion. This starting position felt very comfortable. I think I was overthinking the squat due to not being able to squat for a long time (due to hamstring injury).

Does the form for the second video look decent? Do you see anything wrong with either the starting position or the rest of the form?

Sorry if this is being double posted...I hit post reply, but nothing appeared on the screen, but the loading circle.

Squat - YouTube

Squat 2 - YouTube

[Tom Campitelli]

You have perhaps a touch more hip flexion in the first video than ideal, but I wonder if I would have even noticed it had we not been discussing it. The second one was just fine. I would not be fussed about it either way. Go forth in sin and worry about this no longer. I do question whether you are going deep enough in any of those squats, however. The first one is shot on a wide angle lens, so angles are distorted to hell and back. The second video probably has you the tiniest bit above parallel on almost every rep. A wider stance makes getting depth trickier. Also, your knees could potentially use to go slightly further forward. Whatever the case, how you are standing up at the top looks fine to me.

[koreansavage]

You have perhaps a touch more hip flexion in the first video than ideal, but I wonder if I would have even noticed it had we not been discussing it. The second one was just fine. I would not be fussed about it either way. Go forth in sin and worry about this no longer. I do question whether you are going deep enough in any of those squats, however. The first one is shot on a wide angle lens, so angles are distorted to hell and back. The second video probably has you the tiniest bit above parallel on almost every rep. A wider stance makes getting depth trickier. Also, your knees could potentially use to go slightly further forward. Whatever the case, how you are standing up at the top looks fine to me.

That's a relief. I tend to over analyze my own lifts quite a bit. Ah, and both squats were actually not supposed to be to depth. The first one was my attempt at @ parallel squats...but strangely enough, people on the facebook SS page seemed to tell me it was to depth even though I didn't think it was. Probably due to the distortion. The second video was supposed to be tempo squats @ 1" above parallel.

But with this next week, Jordan has be going back to competition squats, and I do see how setting my knees a bit more further would help with maintaining better position while hitting full depth.

Thanks a bunch Tom!