Stirring the Pot, Episode I - "Looking down" in the squat

[blowdpanis]

Because I really like Rip's analysis of exercise form, I figure people who similarly enjoy this sort of thing may like being challenged on some of their beliefs. As such, I'm going to make a case against the necessity of a "look down" head position in the squat. This isn't really meant to be inflammatory, I'd just like people to actually think about this for a minute, why they believe it's a good thing, and consider the following...

edit: when I say "look down," I am talking about the common Rippetoe/Starting Strength prescription of picking a spot on the floor ~6-10 feet in front of you, and keeping your eyes fixed there. When I say "look ahead," I am talking about just what it sounds like, some spot closer to eye level, what people will usually pick without you coaching it.

"Look down" is advocated in the squat by Rippetoe et al for two primary reasons:

1) To attain a neutral neck position, which is theoretically safer

I actually think this one is the easiest to attack. The suggestion is that, looking ahead/up in a squat will put the cervical spine into hyperextension. This is probably true, and is proportionate to how high you look. I.e. if you're a weirdo looking at the ceiling, your neck is going to be pretty damn hyperextended.

How about just looking "straight ahead?" Maybe a little bit. Is this actually dangerous?

Here's the thing - is your cervical spine loaded in a (low bar) squat? To any significant degree at all? The answer being...no. The weight of the bar is below your cervical spine, your cervical spine is only supporting your head.

Rip makes a point in the Starting Strength DVD that a bit of an arch in the bench can be okay since the spine isn't being loaded in that position, i.e. the mild hyperextension isn't necessarily dangerous because there is no simultaneous compressive force. Well, the cervical spine isn't being appreciably loaded in a squat either, so what exactly is the danger?

On an anecdotal level, given that the vast majority of olympic weightlifters and powerlifters basically look "straight ahead," how many have you heard of having neck problems from their head position in the squat? I have heard of about zero.

So no, I don't buy that looking forward is particularly dangeorus.

2) Because it "forces you to use the hips more" / is stronger

There is a certain logic here, in that where you look actually does have an effect on how far you bend over, and as a consequence, the amount of hip flexion vs. knee flexion that occurs on the way down. I.e. looking down causes you to be proportionately more bent over, with less knee angle. This implies the posterior chain will work a little more, and the quads a little less.

Okay. So why is that, in the abstract, actually a good thing? Do you stop using your hips by looking ahead in the squat? Does anybody actually believe that the glutes/hamstrings/adductors aren't firing for the vast majority of olympic weightlifters and powerlifters?

The reply might be then "well, you'd use your hip musculature more by looking down." Insofar as it probably causes you to bend over a little more, that's probably true. This, then, is supposed to necessarily be stronger, and is supported by Rip's test of placing his hand on their sacrum/low back and telling them to drive up, comparing looking at the floor vs. the ceiling.

Here's what always killed me about that test - how about just looking straight ahead, instead of at the ceiling? Has anyone actually performed the test that way?

Or, here's a more practical test - the next time you squat, try looking basically straight ahead. Are you actually weaker like that?

And that's sort of the point here. I suspect that some people actually will be stronger looking down, for a combination of possible reasons. I.e. they have strong hips/low back, or their proportions favor it. However, some people probably won't be stronger looking down. In fact, they may actually be stronger looking ahead, for those very same reasons.

Example: say you have a person with proportionately long femurs, such that he has to adopt a fairly bent over squat position in order to keep the weight over midfoot. If looking ahead causes the balance between knee/hip to make him slightly more upright, isn't that potentially a good thing?

So while I buy that some people probably will be stronger looking down, I am willing to bet a large chunk of cash that a large amount of people will find more or less no difference, with some actually finding that an "eyes ahead" position is actually stronger.

Conclusion

Since we can't really make an appeal to popularity/authority on the head down position (i.e. most strong dudes look more or less straight ahead), and since it's probably not dangerous, and for a lot of people it will make either no difference or they might actually be stronger with eyes ahead, I'm going to have to call the necessity of looking down on the squat to be, in the very least, unfounded.

Stated differently, if looking down actually makes you stronger and/or your form better, this is good, and you should do it. If looking straight ahead does the same, you should probably do that. If it makes no difference, you should probably do whatever the heck you want to, instead of the "LOOK DOWN" advice offered to basically everybody on this forum.

[Frozen Fruit]

It's hard to take something from a guy that goes by 'blowdpanis' seriously.

[Sami]

"Frozen Fruitcake" is much better.

[blowdpanis]

"Frozen Fruitcake" is much better.

lol, yes, much.

The Appeal to Stupid/Silly Internet Name fallacy. I have not encountered that in quite some time.

[matclone]

blowpanis, you need to define what you mean by "looking down"? In Starting Strength, I believe Rip says to look at a point on the floor 6-10 feet ahead. Does that change your analysis any?

[blowdpanis]

blowpanis, you need to define what you mean by "looking down"? In Starting Strength, I believe Rip says to look at a point on the floor 6-10 feet ahead. Does that change your analysis any?

No, I meant looking down at the floor several feet in front of you, i.e. the ~6-10 foot rule, or the common Rippetoe/Starting Strength prescription for where to look. I'm pretty sure we realize that there is a certain novelty to this recommendation, as it's not typical in the strength world, and I'm basically questioning whether it's justified for everybody, or even most people.

A different way of putting this, in basically every video in which a person is seen looking ahead (not even at the ceiling, simply NOT down) instead of down, they are "corrected" on this by both Rip and the fellows on this board.

[brobinson]

Personally, after months of training I've come to the point where I believe getting into the low-bar position will never be possible for me, so I'm still doing high-bar squats.

Based on experimentation, I find looking down or straight ahead makes no difference in my squat.

I've never squatted looking straight up simply because it seems to be a completely unnatural position. I would imagine most would agree, and the looking up idea is passed on from common bro sources such as the muscle magazines.

[blowdpanis]

Personally, after months of training I've come to the point where I believe getting into the low-bar position will never be possible for me, so I'm still doing high-bar squats.

Based on experimentation, I find looking down or straight ahead makes no difference in my squat.

I've never squatted looking straight up simply because it seems to be a completely unnatural position. I would imagine most would agree, and the looking up idea is passed on from common bro sources such as the muscle magazines.

The looking up thing is pretty stupid imho, but I don't think it's as common as people make it out to be. If you go to a gym and watch people squat, even their usually shitty 1/4 squats, most people without being told will basically look straight ahead, and I think it's the most common head position you'll find. See also: olympic weightlifters, the vast majority of powerlifters, etc.

[Shaf]

I look down, or somewhat straight ahead. This manifested itself naturally when I stopped training at a commercial place with mirrors in front of everything.

I don't think it matters much as long as you're not looking too far down or too far up. Most competitive powerlifters look somewhat straight out, with distinct minorities looking up or down.

[brobinson]

The looking up thing is pretty stupid imho, but I don't think it's as common as people make it out to be. If you go to a gym and watch people squat, even their usually shitty 1/4 squats, most people without being told will basically look straight ahead, and I think it's the most common head position you'll find. See also: olympic weightlifters, the vast majority of powerlifters, etc.

I agree, looking ahead or slightly down would me most natural for most without being told one way or another. I also think most would do deep squats naturally when first learning, if it weren't for trying to look stronger with more weight doing quarter squats. It's a natural movement ruined by ego, and watching others perform it improperly.