Advanced Novice or Bill Starr Intermediate

[siimon89]

My current stats:

Bodyweight: 163lbs
Bodyfat: ~10%

Estimated 1RM:
Squat: 264lbs
Deadlift: 286lbs (done 308x3reps in Sumo)
Bench: 176lbs
Press: 128lbs
Hang Clean: 136lbs

Done SS twice. First time I was up to a bodyweight of 181lbs and 20% bodyfat. Stalled on Squat and dieted down to where I'm at now. And at the end of the diet I did 2-3 weeks of SS and got to 234lbs 3x5 before I felt burned out (was on a calorie restricted diet) and started doing Westside routines. So this is where I'm at now.

Do you guys think I should do some kind of Advanced Novice routine or a Bill Starr 5x5 Intermediate inspired routine?

Thanks,
Simon

[Ian Kovtunovich]

You probably already know that you can't really be making the kind of gains that SS can provide if you are trying to do it on a calorie restricted diet. You should probably decide if you want to be thin, or if you want to be strong. If you choose the latter, you can always get thin later. If you choose the former, you should probably not beat your head against the wall trying to get much in the way of strength gains.

[Tom Campitelli]

I think you should do Starting Strength and eat enough food to get your numbers a good deal higher before you worry about intermediate programming. How old are you and how tall are you?

[siimon89]

I'm 20 years old and 5feet 11inches tall (181cm). The thing is, I don't want to be fat again. So I cycle my calories at about 3300kcal at training days, and 2200kcal (-300) on 3 other days and 1 day at maintainence. I'm not going to overeat like a pig again just to get strong fast.
Then I'd rather make a bit slower gains and keep my bodyfat in check then getting fat and having to diet down again.

The point is, I was around 14% bodyfat and 167lbs and did SS. Ended up stronger but also at 20% bodyfat, dieted down to 10% and now I'm here again.

[Tom Campitelli]

At 5'11" and 163 lbs, you are significantly underweight. At 20 years old, you have the best hormonal profile and recovery abilities that you will at any time in your life. I wish I knew about squats and proper training when I was that age.

You said that you went from 167 lbs at 14% bodyfat to 181 lbs at 20%. According to those numbers you put on 12.8 pounds of fat and 1.2 pounds of muscle. If this is really the case, and I suspect it is not, you did something very, very wrong. You would probably have to subsist on a diet of pure ice cream with no physical activity to make that kind of body composition shift.

I am not suggesting that you get fat, but it is very rare to be able to put on muscular bodyweight without some fat coming along for the ride. If you want to stay as lean as possible, drop the sugar and the refined carbohydrates out of your diet. Eat lots of meat, eggs, milk, and veggies. This closely mirrors John Welbourn's Paleo+Milk recommendations. Keep your caloric intake high on rest days because you need it for recovery. If you want to keep a little conditioning work in there, do so. I know skinny women that eat more than you do on your rest days. I'm not kidding.

[Tom Campitelli]

Also, sleep more. It is good for insulin sensitivity and recovery. Sleep makes everything better.

[siimon89]

Haha!

Of course it was more muscle than that. And yeah, I ate a bit too much shit but total calories will still have a big impact on how much muscle/fat you put on. The body can only grow so much.

So you're suggesting doing SS again and eating more? Then I'll have to revalute total calories to not get fat this time. I would at least wish to stay around the same body fat %. Zig-zag diet recommended by Dr Squat might be something. Overfeeding 5 days/week by 400+, and underfeeding 2 days by the -400. At least I'll grow more than I do now. Thoughts?

[TrackJunkie]

A brief read of his zig-zag diet comes up with some pretty silly stuff. If I had to make a recommendation for doing what you want to do, I'd suggest cycling back and forth between SS and some sort of dieting phase, maybe something following Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss.

[siimon89]

A brief read of his zig-zag diet comes up with some pretty silly stuff. If I had to make a recommendation for doing what you want to do, I'd suggest cycling back and forth between SS and some sort of dieting phase, maybe something following Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss.

Nah, I'm not interested in that. I believe it's better to have slow gains than to change between diet phases/programs. Having a slight underfeeding on some recovery days can work too. Look at leangains.com.

I'm willing to eat more and cut abit back on the zig-zagging, but I'm not gonna go and get fat again just to get strong. The dieting time after SUCKS!

[ZKP]

Westside routines? Jesus man, you need to really look at something more fundamental than that. You've have not done SS twice. You've done SS wrong twice. Either that or you're just doomed to small and weak/ or fat for genetic reasons which are completely out of your control..... and i doubt that. Take a serious and honest look at what you could be doing with the basics and go from there. I bet you're not squatting aggressively(loading) enough and are not getting enough protein and sleep. Making this more complicated will not help you.... simplicity is not your problem here. Good luck.

ps 20 year old men have no business counting calories.....and 181 lbs is not fat at 5'11....you where just moving out of metrohood.