Magnesium glycinate

[Hyperfluxe]

So it turns out that I may very well be magnesium deficient since my micronutrition is poor, plus I have all the common symptoms like sleep problems. Doing research it looks like magnesium glycinate is the best form as it's the most bioavailable (and glycine itself has good data showing increased sleep quality). My question is what dosage should I be using for a deficiency? Common doses say 400mg of pure magnesium, but magnesium glycinate is only 14% magnesium?

Bonus question: what are your top sleep supplements? Currently taking melatonin, soon to be magnesium, l-theanine with my caffeine, vitamin d3 and occasional phenibut.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

So it turns out that I may very well be magnesium deficient since my micronutrition is poor, plus I have all the common symptoms like sleep problems. Doing research it looks like magnesium glycinate is the best form as it's the most bioavailable (and glycine itself has good data showing increased sleep quality). My question is what dosage should I be using for a deficiency? Common doses say 400mg of pure magnesium, but magnesium glycinate is only 14% magnesium?

I'd start by asking why you think your micronutrition is poor? Do you live in a 3rd world country or live off a really poor diet? What's the deal there?

I don't think I would be on board automatically attributing sleep problems to mag. deficiency, given that insomnia generates about 5 million primary care office visits per year and something like 1/3 of primary care patients report insomnia in the previous year.

Magnesium deficiency is usually caused by one of the following:
-Gastrointestinal losses (diarrhea, vomiting, genetic mag. transporter dysfunction, pancreatitis, etc.)
- Renal problems
-Medications
- alcoholism
- ketogenic diets
- post operatively

Playing the numbers, it's pretty unlikely you're mag deficient but obviously I can't tell from here. You'd probably have some neuromuscular issues (tetany, seizures, tremors), an abnormal EKG, and low potassium + calcium. So yea... if you do have this you should get it checked out ASAP with lab work and a clinical evaluation.

Bonus question: what are your top sleep supplements? Currently taking melatonin, soon to be magnesium, l-theanine with my caffeine, vitamin d3 and occasional phenibut.

Sleep hygiene
Melatonin (low dose is more effective than high dose)
Valerian Root

[Hyperfluxe]

I'd start by asking why you think your micronutrition is poor? Do you live in a 3rd world country or live off a really poor diet? What's the deal there?

I don't think I would be on board automatically attributing sleep problems to mag. deficiency, given that insomnia generates about 5 million primary care office visits per year and something like 1/3 of primary care patients report insomnia in the previous year.

Magnesium deficiency is usually caused by one of the following:
-Gastrointestinal losses (diarrhea, vomiting, genetic mag. transporter dysfunction, pancreatitis, etc.)
- Renal problems
-Medications
- alcoholism
- ketogenic diets
- post operatively

Playing the numbers, it's pretty unlikely you're mag deficient but obviously I can't tell from here. You'd probably have some neuromuscular issues (tetany, seizures, tremors), an abnormal EKG, and low potassium + calcium. So yea... if you do have this you should get it checked out ASAP with lab work and a clinical evaluation.



Sleep hygiene
Melatonin (low dose is more effective than high dose)
Valerian Root

Well, I just don't eat much fruits/vegetables, I get about 1-2 cups/day. I know that it would be better to change my diet instead. There seems to be a lot of mis/over diagnosis going on with the internet, maybe that's the case with magnesium but it's just something that came up in an overwhelming amount of results, and I seem to have all the symptoms. In any case, I already ordered some for a month's supply so guess it can't hurt, I'll use Sleep Cycle on my phone to track my sleep quality post magnesium and see what happens.

Do you know why low dose melatonin is more effective than high dose? I know the data says so, but I don't understand why. I've been taking 10mg pills for the longest time now, should I just get 1mg pills?

I don't know if you've tried phenibut, but boy I wish I could take this stuff daily with no tolerance. It's the best thing ever.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

What symptoms do you have?

[Chuck Tringo]

I think a lot larger portion of the US is deficient in a large amount of micronutrients. The vast majority of American's diets are bereft of fruits and vegetables and full of processed crap. There are quite a few scientists/Drs. Who beloeve that the rda levels of nutrient intake will stave off immediate life threatening disease but could be too low for low for long term health. Magnesium in particular is required for hundreds of biological processes including DNA repair. I think the levels of metabolic syndrome/obesity/DM in the US are telling enough that you dont have to live in a third world country to be deficient in micronutrients. That being said Im a bigger fan of Daiky Kale or Spinach in larger than typical 'Merican quantities to up magnesium stores.

Suboptimal magnesium status in the United States: are the health consequences underestimated?
Suboptimal magnesium status in the United States: are the health consequences underestimated? - PubMed - NCBI

[Hyperfluxe]

Inability to sleep well and anxiety/irritation/agitation, but I guess that could be due to a whole host of lifestyle factors. Is it true that high doses of caffeine and vitamin d3 deplete magnesium?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I think a lot larger portion of the US is deficient in a large amount of micronutrients. The vast majority of American's diets are bereft of fruits and vegetables and full of processed crap. There are quite a few scientists/Drs. Who beloeve that the rda levels of nutrient intake will stave off immediate life threatening disease but could be too low for low for long term health.

I certainly am biased in that I believe most Americans could eat a higher quality diet. That said, I'm going to have to ask for evidence supporting that a "large portion of the US is deficient in a large amount of micronutrients". The latest from the CDC suggests 10% of the US population has SOME deficiency with vitamin b6, iron, and vitamin d being the top 3.

Magnesium in particular is required for hundreds of biological processes including DNA repair. I think the levels of metabolic syndrome/obesity/DM in the US are telling enough that you dont have to live in a third world country to be deficient in micronutrients.

There are a lot of things that are required for hundreds of biological processes, but what does that have to do with mag? Are you also suggesting that the etiology of metabolic syndrome/obesity/DM are micronutrient deficiencies rather than the disease processes producing a greater risk of micronutrient deficiencies?

Suboptimal magnesium status in the United States: are the health consequences underestimated? - PubMed - NCBI

[/QUOTE]

Notice that there is not prevalence or incidence data reported in this paper, nor are improved outcomes with "optimization" of magnesium replacement. I'm not saying that nutrient deficiencies aren't a problem, but I am saying it's unlikely that someone living in the US who is not hospitalized, is without serious liver or kidney disease, and is not an alcoholic or anorexic probably has a normal magnesium level.

The current data suggests that ~2% of the gen pop might be low on mag- though to what effect this number has on outcomes...it's hard to say. One meta analysis found that after a heart attack people were low on magnesium but it didn't matter if they replaced it or not because it didn't change anything outcome wise. People got better regardless of mag replacement (or they didn't) and their mag levels normalized. This, again, suggests that maybe magnesium's level is a surrogate marker for certain pathologies in some instances.

Inability to sleep well and anxiety/irritation/agitation, but I guess that could be due to a whole host of lifestyle factors.

100%

Is it true that high doses of caffeine and vitamin d3 deplete magnesium?

No. Caffeine transiently increases urinary excretion of some minerals (mag included) for a little bit, but the body just reabsorbs more to compensate. Vitamin D and Mag are intimately related with one affecting the other and vice versa, but higher vitamin D levels appear to produce higher mag levels.

[Hyperfluxe]

So I took 400mg of elemental magnesium last night (along with 3.3g glycine since it's mag glycinate), and I was wide awake in the middle of the night. This happened before when I took ZMA, which a lot of people seem to have the same problem with. Is there any reason why magnesium would wake you up at night? The interwebz say that those who experienced this problem took it in the morning and the problem went away, or that they supplemented with calcium since magnesium depletes it (is that true?). Oh well, I have a month's supply for $12 so let's see what happens, but it's probably a waste as you alluded.

[Chuck Tringo]

In short yes, I do believe that micronutrient deficiency plays a role in the pathogenesis of metabolic syndrome, etc.. As alluded to in my first post I am not 100% on board woth the CDC or the RDAs definitions of deficiency. I happen to be a fan of Dr. Ames triage theory which states that our body uses nutrients first to stave off acute issues (vitamin k - clotting factors) and after that is complete it can use the nutrients for other purposes (vit k affects on calcium deposition). So do people have an abolute deficiency? No, but are they at optimum levels for long term health, probably not. I think like many things there is a continuum...from acute disease to functional but not optimal, to excessive with increasing levels/dosage.

Vitamin K, an example of triage theory: is micronutrient inadequacy linked to diseases of aging?

I will not lie in that I tend to be a bit of a contrarian and do not buy into alot of the government approved recommendations on diet as I feel that they are bought and pain for by agricultural and food corporations. Just like the triage theory however, I dont have "proof" of this, but I dont believe that alot of the stuff we are told about nutrition has much proof either.

And here is a little evidence for micronutrient theory. Obesity is fastly becoming the norm in this country and well above 10%.

A multicomponent nutrient bar promotes weight loss and improves dyslipidemia and insulin resistance in the overweight/obese: chronic inflammation blunts these improvements

The CDC doesnt have a minimum level for polyphenol intake either, but these have been shown to have beneficial health affects. Similarly, absolute deficiency as a possible exception, artificial vitamins have not been shown to have health effects of whole foods. I think science (funded by corporations). I definitely think that we dont know nearly as much about nutrition as the American Dietetic Association or American Medical Association would like us to believe.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

So I took 400mg of elemental magnesium last night (along with 3.3g glycine since it's mag glycinate), and I was wide awake in the middle of the night. This happened before when I took ZMA, which a lot of people seem to have the same problem with. Is there any reason why magnesium would wake you up at night?

Not really. I'd be looking at your sleep hygiene

he interwebz say that those who experienced this problem took it in the morning and the problem went away, or that they supplemented with calcium since magnesium depletes it (is that true?).

Not really. Magnesium does play a role in calcium transport, however.

In short yes, I do believe that micronutrient deficiency plays a role in the pathogenesis of metabolic syndrome, etc.. As alluded to in my first post I am not 100% on board worth the CDC or the RDAs definitions of deficiency.

It is the IOM (Institute of Medicine)'s Food and Nutrition Board whom make the daily recommended intake and if there is insufficient data to determine an daily recommended intake for a given nutrient, requirements can be expressed as an Adequate Intake (AI), which is an estimation of the nutrient intake necessary to maintain a healthy state as determined by the IOM. The levels of clinical deficiency are based on clinical disease, with reference ranges determined by the International Federation of Clinical Chemistry and Laboratory Medicine. I do think that there can be issues with the reference ranges that have been established AND it's likely that in the future of personalized medicine, that each individual will have their own set of reference values. That being said, what clinical evidence leads to you to believe that the IOM and IFCC-LM are incorrect?

I happen to be a fan of Dr. Ames triage theory which states that our body uses nutrients first to stave off acute issues (vitamin k - clotting factors) and after that is complete it can use the nutrients for other purposes (vit k affects on calcium deposition). So do people have an abolute deficiency? No, but are they at optimum levels for long term health, probably not. I think like many things there is a continuum...from acute disease to functional but not optimal, to excessive with increasing levels/dosage.

Vitamin K, an example of triage theory: is micronutrient inadequacy linked to diseases of aging?

The linked study is in rodents, which isn't exactly compelling. Additionally, there is not a lot of data that supports this bias as the cause of disease (vs as a potential sequelae of it). I am not saying you're wrong to think what you think, but the data is FAR from substantial (IMO) to hold such a view.

I will not lie in that I tend to be a bit of a contrarian and do not buy into alot of the government approved recommendations on diet as I feel that they are bought and pain for by agricultural and food corporations. Just like the triage theory however, I dont have "proof" of this, but I dont believe that alot of the stuff we are told about nutrition has much proof either.

What specifically do you not believe?

And here is a little evidence for micronutrient theory. Obesity is fastly becoming the norm in this country and well above 10%.

Might it be that the processes leading to obesity, MetS, etc. are likely to produce a nutrient deficiency on some level? I do not have access to this full text to review, but if the nutrient bar in the study has fiber, protein, omega 3 fatty acids, or any number of things in it we couldn't necessarily attribute the improvement to the micronutrient status and THE BIG THING is that they lost weight, which is known to improve the numbers they looked at in and of itself. So, micronutrients or??? Maybe all of the thigns contributed.