Squat - elbows position

[infamous]

Hi,

I bought your new starting strength book to improve my form on basic exercises.
Anyway, when I was reading your book I noticed that you wrote this about elbows position in squat:

''The bar should be placed in the correct position... ...and then secured in place by lifting the elbows and the chest at the same time.''

and

''When the elbows come up and the chest comes up, the hands are pushed forward and the bar is actually forced forward into the back....''

Since I practised a position Dave Tate (weal know powerlifter) talks about in his 'Squat 900 pounds' article, I am confused.

''You must also keep the shoulder blades pulled together with your elbows pulled forward. This will create the much needed upper back tightness to keep the barbell in proper position. Remember, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so you must keep the barbell in the proper path.

When your elbows turn out toward the back, the bar will drift forward again and end up stapling you to the floor as well as ripping your head off. This is one common mistake I see in all my seminars. When I ask attendees who taught them to squat with their elbows back, nine out of ten times they say, "My coach." This is another example of those who think they know how to squat not knowingsquat!''

I also searched on other weightlifting forums and almost all prefer elbows pulled forward and down.

Could you please explain your view on elbows placement.

Thank you

[Mark Rippetoe]

Dave and I disagree on this, but the reason may be that his cues work quite well for suit-and-wraps competition lifters, and I primarily deal with a general strength-training population. In speaking with Dave and Jim, I often find that we actually disagree on very few important things.

[infamous]

In my observation in the standing position elbows back and up feels more comfortable and secure. On the other hand in the bottom position I've got a feeling that I can lose my 'chest up' position more easily with elbows up position and as a result my bar drifts forward. With elbows down and forward that doesn't happen so easily because elbows down somehow don't allow this.

Could you please elaborate why do you feel that elbows back is better position for general stength training population?

Do you think I should just be conscious about 'chest up' position in the bottom of squat and that I shouldn't need any cues because if I would use elbows forward as a cue I wouldn't make a secure 'shelf' for bar on my back as I could with elbows back?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Elbows-up provides a platform of tight, contracted muscle for the bar to rest on, the "shelf" that you feel form for the bar. If the bar is placed just below the scapular spine, the posterior delt becomes a secure landmark on the back for bar placement. It also places the elbows in a position where they are not loaded, and if the wrists are kept straight with the thumb over the bar all of the load is on the back. Elbows-down relaxes all those muscles and allows the bar to rest on skeletal components that do not benefit from the pressure, and places some percentage of the weight on the wrists and elbows. The "chest-up" cue further contracts the upper fibers of the erector spinae and smaller ribcage muscles, and thus maintains the normal anatomical position of the thoracic vertebrae. The combination of elbows-up and chest-up traps the bar securely in place, and removes bar movement as a variable for the lifter.