Banded Flossing and recovery

[LimieJosh]

I recently started hitting a couple of MWods that use bands for what Kelly calls "banded distractions" for both my troublesome shoulders and hips. While I haven't done it long enough to judge the chronic impact, I've been very impressed with the acute improvements. I've felt fresh and pain/niggle free going into each session since I've started doing this and so my warm ups have been great, but by the time I get to my work weights I've just failed terribly. This has been four sessions now and My performance has been in the toilet on each. I'm talking struggling today with 350 (just two reps) despite this being a 10lbs deload to account for the previous week' scrappy training.

I am not doing any of this stuff directly prior to the workout, so I'm left to wonder whether this particular form of mobility work eats into recovery? FWIW it doesn't "feel" like it does, yet this is the most likely explanation. Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this?

[Michael Wolf]

I have no experience with banded flossing or distractions. Anyone else?

[Tom Campitelli]

Is this the only variable you changed during this time?

[LimieJosh]

Sort of, but it's complicated by a short trip back to England, a trip that always makes me feel weak and tight for a couple of days (thurs-mon, so accounted for two missed sessions). I got back from that last monday afternoon. My first banded MWOD was that evening. I did a gentle "getting back into the swing of things" session on tuesday afternoon and despite the significantly lowered expectations it was really hard. I shrugged it off assuming that, as typical, I would be fine by my next session, but it wasn't. I can just about put that following session's crapness (thursday) down to the lasting effects of the travel, but, based on my history, not saturday's or monday's. The banded flossing is the only thing consistent throughout this period yet based on the way I feel its difficult to believe its having this sort of effect. FWIW Joh Hanley replied to a version of this thread int he training forum saying he has a lot of experience with these drills and has never had a problem with his performance afterwards.

[GudeMN]

I've "flossed" my hips per MWod and it did improve ROM and and reduce some pain/tightness, but I felt like a noodle afterwards and didn't feel as strong as you reported as well.

An article in the January 2014 Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (Static Stretching Can Impair Explosive Performance for at Least 24 Hours) referenced studies showing strength/power losses from stretching. The longer the stretch lasted the greater the detriment to strength/power performance. While "flossing" isn't static stretching as utilized in the studies referenced, it is stretching in the end. Starrett recommends spending at least 2 minutes on an area to "change tissue". That's a pretty long stretch IMO and the article reports stretches lasting that long effect performance for an extended time. Maybe this is what you are running into?

[LimieJosh]

Thanks for addressing this one, guys.

GudeNM, Interestingly I haven't felt noodley at all. In contrast I've felt great, but then once I get to a work set its like someone turned the tap on and drained me of my strength. The stretching - reduced force production capacity relationship is pretty well established, which was why I started thinking about the flossing as being responsible for the problem. It's interesting to know there is at least one other person out there who has experienced the same. What bands are you using? Given that John Hanley responded to my other thread saying he had no problems at from doing these drills, I wonder whether we've been using bands with too much resistance? I'm using the black band from Rogue, which is kind of mid to high resistance in their range.

Moving forward I'm going to make sure I don't do any drills for an affected part closer than 48 hours prior to a session and see if that makes a difference.

[Tom Campitelli]

I will be interested to hear how this turns out for you.

[GudeMN]

I use the black Rogue band as well and I stretch that thing as much as I can. If I don't put a lot of stretch into it, I don't get much for results in mobility changes and pain reduction. I don't think you can use too much stretch....the distraction and the movement of the joint is what allows the improvement in mobility if I understand correctly. Our issues may have more to do with time spent mobilizing...more in line with the "stretching makes you weak" stance.

Another possibility is the new ROM gained in a short amount of time. A PT I know (who thinks in line with treating the system as a whole) specializes in Manual Therapy techniques which are intended to return a joint to it's full ROM. She states that when a joint is "stuck". i.e. has limited ROM, the muscles responsible for that joint will only have good strength and control through the effective ROM. When all of a sudden a joint's ROM is returned to its full range, the muscles involved don't immediately have good function and control of the joint in the new range because it's basically a new neural pattern for the muscles to deal with. Think of someone who has 1/2 squatted their whole life who is shown the light and squats below parallel.....that person can look pretty shaky coming out of the hole and often has to reduce the weight moved because of the extra range the muscle are now responsible for....a new range the muscles have not had to deal with and have no neural "memory" for. The good news is the responsible muscles learn the ROM relatively quickly as long as they are used through the full range and control and then strength are regained. Similar to novice getting more proficient at squatting by squatting.

The banded distractions and flossing with the Rogue bands does make immediate changes in my effective ROM, so maybe it's the sudden appearance of more joint range that causes the unsteadiness and weakness. If I consistently use the bands and get my hip ROM to a point where I can hit depth easily and I squat, I don't have discomfort. I can quit using the bands and basically I keep my mobility by squatting. I get into trouble when I have a lay off and don't or can't squat.

Lots of "what ifs".....

[LimieJosh]

This is just bizarre. I went in today to squat, felt great, felt strong in the warm up and just bombed the work sets with an even worse performance than the one on Monday. I hadn’t done any banded mobility work for my hips since Wednesday morning (as part of my bench session). I was well fed, well rested, and just totally shit.

This is the timeline:
Sometime in the summer – reworked my squat a bit, getting the bar a bit lower and a subsequently found a better hip drive. Ran a short NLP to take advantage of this new found hip drive

Early Nov – peaked the NLP at 380 for sets across. My shoulder was starting to get a bit sore so gave it some recovery time and did about a month of front squatting.

Early December – shoulder felt ok so resumed proper squatting, but found my front squat escapades had resulted in a little bit of squat strength loss so ran short NLP again before moving to Texas Method

Jan 2nd and 8th were my last squatting sessions before my trip back to England. I did 315 X 5 X 5 (easy, soft 2 mins rest) and 365 X 5 (heavy, but no where near a limit set) for the respective sessions.

Jan 13th – Back in the US

Jan 14th – General recovery session. Things felt heavy, but they always do after this trip, hence taking a “recovery” session. Banded MWODs began. Did them daily for the first week.

Jan 16th – Repeated previous volume day 315 X 5 X 5. Required a real ball busting effort to complete and long rests required.

Jan 20th – Based on how hard the volume session was I deloaded the intensity load back down to 350 yet barely got two reps. I deloaded further and did two more sets of 5 at 335 just to get in some volume and nail down form. Form felt solid, just weak

Today – I decided to just accept a bit of a strength loss and run a short NLP to work back up and started with 335 seeing as I managed two ok sets on Monday. I couldn’t even get the reps on the first set . Deloaded to 315 and fought like hell to get the two remaining sets (4-5 mins rest).

The story is similar, but less pronounced for bench. I think I saw too many men in Skinny jeans while I was in the UK and my mind tried to recalibrate me into hipster physique. My rest and food have been adequate and on a par with normal.

The banded distractions and flossing with the Rogue bands does make immediate changes in my effective ROM, so maybe it's the sudden appearance of more joint range that causes the unsteadiness and weakness.

Thats possible.

[Joe Tandy]

Stretching before exercise decreased out ability to contract a muscle hard.
Just don't do it.