Deadlift Check

[MDP]

Ok, here's another video of 5 reps pulled conventional filmed at what I hope is a better angle. I'm doing my 1st meet on the 3rd of August so I don't have much time to change anything before then but any ideas would be helpful.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIqVBM5e3ls

[Michael Wolf]

Hips, eye gaze, breathing.

Hips: They're too low at the start of your pull. Notice how your hips rise before the plates break the floor. It is unusual, however, in that you don't appear to push the bar forward of mid-foot via bending your knees and pushing shins forward. Rather, it appears that you set up correctly at first, and then sit back onto your heels, allowing yourself to sit your hips down further without inclining your shins or pushing the bar forward of mid-foot.

But the net effect, though not the same, is still extra unwanted work. Keep your own weight over mid-foot on the set up and don't sit back, even if the bar doesn't move. This might feel odd and "forward" at first, but should fix the inefficiency.

Eye Gaze: look at a spot 10-15 ft in front of you on the floor (or equivalent spot on the wall, if there isn't that much floor space ahead of you), instead of the forward/up direction you're looking in now. Focus on that spot and stare at it throughout the movement.

Breathing: Take a bigger breath before the squeeze-up each rep. Squeeze up hard.

[MDP]

Thanks Michael,

I noticed the hips coming up 1st too. I should just start at the higher position then? I think I picked up the upward head thing watching some none SS video on the web. I'll work on that too. I appreciate the input. My squat is approaching 2xBW but sadly my DL isn't much in front of it.

[Michael Wolf]

Thanks Michael,

I noticed the hips coming up 1st too. I should just start at the higher position then?

Yes, exactly. Squeezing up / setting your back from this position makes the lift more efficient and easier (at the same weight); it often also feels shorter.

I think I picked up the upward head thing watching some none SS video on the web. I'll work on that too. I appreciate the input. My squat is approaching 2xBW but sadly my DL isn't much in front of it.

none = non? Ya, the "look up to go up" crowd at it again, huh?

Good progress on your squat, your pull will follow with consistent hard work. These tweaks should help too.
I'll add (to be a broken record) that it looks as though you could still benefit from gaining a good bit of bodyweight, too.

[MDP]

Non - That's what I meant.

I think that the head up was at least from the guys at elitefts so I figure they're better than some out there.

I could definitely stand to gain some weight - about 195 at 6'1 so yeah. I'm thinking that my financial situation in the next few months will allow for a $100 a month milk habit that I cannot currently pull off. I love milk but the milk bill doesn't love me

[Michael Wolf]

Non - That's what I meant.

I think that the head up was at least from the guys at elitefts so I figure they're better than some out there.

If you've read Starting Strength and watched the vids here, and also watched videos and read work from other sources, you may have noticed that the form we advocate here is not exactly universally agreed upon by these other sources.

If this video from EFS is indicative of the form the advocate on the deadlift, as it seems to be, then there are some key differences in the way we teach the movement to Novices and also how we coach it:


I'm obviously here because I find the analysis in SS:BBT compelling, and that is how I teach and coach the lift. If you like and find EFS's analysis and form to be superior, then by all means use it. It's just important to know that not everyone teaches the same form in the deadlift and mixing and matching pieces randomly results in a hodgepodge that is neither one nor the other.

And when posting a form check to this thread, you'll get a response based on the SS Model.

I could definitely stand to gain some weight - about 195 at 6'1 so yeah. I'm thinking that my financial situation in the next few months will allow for a $100 a month milk habit that I cannot currently pull off. I love milk but the milk bill doesn't love me

And perhaps decrease your stress somewhat, too? Which is always a good thing for training.

[Milo's Ghost]

Interesting video. This - not necessarily this specific vid, but this teaching method, with the emphasis on pulling *back* - must be the source of the guys I see who push with their heels, often ending up going so far as to lift their toes at the top of the lift. The OP does this a bit (lifting toes), tho less pronounced than some I've seen.

Might just be me, but I've noticed that if I'm not pretty much spot on the middle of the foot, I'm toast. To the point that I've had the bar not budge, I take a second to get on my midfoot, and then it goes up easily. I tend to have the opposite issue, where I get forward on my toes and have to cue midfoot pretty consciously; sometimes I'll cue it too hard and I'll get back on my heels unintentionally.

[Michael Wolf]

Interesting video. This - not necessarily this specific vid, but this teaching method, with the emphasis on pulling *back* - must be the source of the guys I see who push with their heels, often ending up going so far as to lift their toes at the top of the lift. The OP does this a bit (lifting toes), tho less pronounced than some I've seen.

I don't know whether this is the source of it, or if it is just video-canonizing a long and widely held belief among powerlifters, but either way it comes to the same thing. Spreading and reinforcing the pull-back and push-through-your-heels advice. Whereas we obviously teach straight up and mid-foot.

It's interesting that he specifically says he's looking for a vertical bar path in the video, even though he wants you to pull back. If you start in the right place, the leg itself ensures a vertical bar path even if you're pulling backwards, since the bar won't go past where the leg is, but you'll be off-balance backwards as you pull. Which is why he keeps stumbling backwards in the video. There's a lot of commentators who ask about that on the youtube video page; I only read the comments that are on the first page, but everyone seems to be satisfied with the answer being "because it's so light for him and he's so well-trained/it feels like nothing to him." Being satisfied with that answer is odd to me when it seems an apparent inefficiency in the pull.

Might just be me, but I've noticed that if I'm not pretty much spot on the middle of the foot, I'm toast. To the point that I've had the bar not budge, I take a second to get on my midfoot, and then it goes up easily. I tend to have the opposite issue, where I get forward on my toes and have to cue midfoot pretty consciously; sometimes I'll cue it too hard and I'll get back on my heels unintentionally.

You make an interesting point. I've noticed at the power meets I go to that there a lot of strong people who use absolutely and visibly horrible technique. The mechanical inefficiencies are so apparent that they make my eyes hurt watching. Yet these people are still squatting, benching, and pulling a lot of weight. And I'm like you - if I'm even a little off, I feel it and often don't make a lift.

I wonder how these people get so strong with such poor technique. Just a guess but maybe a part of it is not realizing it's inefficient technique. Since they don't have a good model for knowing what's off and what's on-point, their brain doesn't give them any feedback that they're off of where they're supposed to be, and they go just as hard as always. Whereas someone who knows they're off of mid-foot or whatever the case is, actually feels it, and part of their brain is telling them this lift is off. Concentration and focus there instead of just pushing through the lift at 100%, oblivious to what's going wrong. That may be totally wrong, but it's a guess.

Though it would fit well with why I and some others I've spoken to (anecdotally) see a much larger % of lifters who use the more traditional PL methods bomb out or miss first attempts. The lack of as well-articulated and described a model with which to lift within probably leads to more variability in form between reps. Leading to a better chance that if one day things just aren't clicking, you're going to miss. Whereas a more developed model allows more consistent adherence to that model, leading to a smaller % difference between what you can do even on a bad day and your normal. So while you may be less likely to surprise yourself with a huge meet PR, that's because your training is actually more accurate at telling you what you can actually do.

This, too, is conjecture, but seems to fit logically within the framework and also anecdotally what I've seen. Of course, it may just be people not choosing their first attempts wisely.

Part of it is probably also that if you train hard with the basic barbell lifts, you will eventually get strong. Even if your form isn't perfect, if you do full ROM barbell lifts and you keep at it hard and consistently, you're going to get stronger.

[Milo's Ghost]

I don't know whether this is the source of it, or if it is just video-canonizing a long and widely held belief among powerlifters, but either way it comes to the same thing. Spreading and reinforcing the pull-back and push-through-your-heels advice. Whereas we obviously teach straight up and mid-foot.

I see this ALL THE TIME - guys want to pull back, so they lower their hips, their shoulders come back further than they should be, and they push through their heels instead of their whole foot. And you can see the bar actually travel backwards a bit - even though it's in contact with their legs the whole time - because they're leaning backwards. Of course, you only see this with fairly light weights; anything heavy isn't going to break the floor backwards, it's going to pull you forward into the right position.

It's interesting that he specifically says he's looking for a vertical bar path in the video, even though he wants you to pull back. If you start in the right place, the leg itself ensures a vertical bar path even if you're pulling backwards, since the bar won't go past where the leg is, but you'll be off-balance backwards as you pull. Which is why he keeps stumbling backwards in the video.

I believe - correct me if I'm wrong - that you can actually pull backward with a light enough weight (what I was getting at above). With a heavy enough weight, though, it can't be done, so it forces you into the right start position and thus, as you said, a vertical bar path. But I don't want to pull something in a way that *forces* me into the correct position, because it'll mean there's movement somewhere before the pull and it's impossible to get as tight as possible - and be *exactly* where you want to be - if you're being forced into it by the weight of the bar. I want to control the bar; I don't want the bar to control me.

You make an interesting point. I've noticed at the power meets I go to that there a lot of strong people who use absolutely and visibly horrible technique. The mechanical inefficiencies are so apparent that they make my eyes hurt watching. Yet these people are still squatting, benching, and pulling a lot of weight. And I'm like you - if I'm even a little off, I feel it and often don't make a lift.

I've always just assumed that it's that I'm not strong enough to overcome inefficient technique when I'm at a near-limit weight, whereas if I'd been training for years, was competitive, etc., it'd be a different story. I mean there are lots of weights I *could* pull with inefficient technique - and sometimes do during warmups, much to my dismay. BUT ...

I wonder how these people get so strong with such poor technique. Just a guess but maybe a part of it is not realizing it's inefficient technique. Since they don't have a good model for knowing what's off and what's on-point, their brain doesn't give them any feedback that they're off of where they're supposed to be, and they go just as hard as always. Whereas someone who knows they're off of mid-foot or whatever the case is, actually feels it, and part of their brain is telling them this lift is off. Concentration and focus there instead of just pushing through the lift at 100%, oblivious to what's going wrong. That may be totally wrong, but it's a guess.

This is something I never thought of, but it makes a lot of sense. Because you're right; if I'm forward when I start the pull, I don't think 'Wow this is hard, gotta grind it out'; I think 'FUCK, I'm forward' and I reset. At least SOME of those reps I could grind out if I didn't know I was fucking something up and I actually tried to do it. And sometimes I DO try to grind it out anyway, but thinking 'I'm lifting this with fucked up form' isn't exactly conducive to grinding out a rep.

Part of it is probably also that if you train hard with the basic barbell lifts, you will eventually get strong. Even if your form isn't perfect, if you do full ROM barbell lifts and you keep at it hard and consistently, you're going to get stronger.

100% agree. I see guys here who stick at 135 (or worse, the empty bar) for weeks or months until their form is 'perfect.' Ain't gonna happen, and it's also not the point.

[MDP]

The meet was all kinds of fun, I'll write something up about it sometime soon but I'm not online very often. Your advice helped but my deadlift still blows.

I made three squats, 160, 165, 170kg

I made my first two benches at 115 and 120kg and missed 125 which I really felt like I had but I did something funny and the spotters jumped in

On deadlift I made 165 and 170 but missed at 182.5. I had to try because it seems ridiculous that I can squat 375 but can't pull 400. There were 5 of us that went together from the Y and trained Starting Strength together. Meet results aren't up yet but I think we set 8 state records!!! I, of course, did not set any