Starting Strength Template/High & Low Bar Squats?

[gregpall603]

Coach Rip,

Reading many of your articles/books, you seem to posit one consistent theme: that insofar as power is a function of strength, low-bar squats -- which allow one to move heavier weight through incorporating the posterior chain -- are therefore relevant and useful for all types barbell training ... even fast Olympic lifts.

Using the Novice Starting Strength template, is it possible to rotate high and low bar squatting -- much like the chins/pull-ups and deadlift/power-cleans on opposite days?

A: Low-Bar
B: High-Bar
A: Low-Bar

While I'm looking to transition towards more OL, high-bar squats seem to negate the hamstrings (they seem more quad-dominant) -- how can anyone say they maximize them? -- so I'm therefore weary of my leg strength becoming imbalanced.... Plus I love the hamstring stretch low-bar squats provide....

But, after reading SS, these templates were clearly designed for a specific reason -- and not to be played with like those lifts are a la carte.

Thank you for your time.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It's obviously possible. But why are you asking me this is you recognize the purpose of the lower bar position?

[sunetdanne]

If you can do low bar with good form then stick to them and add front squats as ol assistance.

[Immortal_k]

Coach Rip,

Reading many of your articles/books, you seem to posit one consistent theme: that insofar as power is a function of strength, low-bar squats -- which allow one to move heavier weight through incorporating the posterior chain -- are therefore relevant and useful for all types barbell training ... even fast Olympic lifts.

Using the Novice Starting Strength template, is it possible to rotate high and low bar squatting -- much like the chins/pull-ups and deadlift/power-cleans on opposite days?

A: Low-Bar
B: High-Bar
A: Low-Bar

While I'm looking to transition towards more OL, high-bar squats seem to negate the hamstrings (they seem more quad-dominant) -- how can anyone say they maximize them? -- so I'm therefore weary of my leg strength becoming imbalanced.... Plus I love the hamstring stretch low-bar squats provide....

But, after reading SS, these templates were clearly designed for a specific reason -- and not to be played with like those lifts are a la carte.

Thank you for your time.

Don't fuck with the program. Do it as is, eat a metric fuck-ton, and get some goddamn sleep. If and/or when you reach a point where you've surpassed novice linear progression, you'll have acquired a sufficient level of strength to do whatever it is your heart desires.

If you're still confused, http://startingstrength.com/index.ph..._clarification

[Philbert]

When you reach the level to need advanced novice change to front squats on Wednesdays, they complement deadlifts nicely.

[Mr_Rogers]

Have you considered low-bar squatting Monday and Friday and front squatting on Wednesday? I did that when I was first starting a more olympic lifting based program. I was still able to make linear gains on both types of squats. If I'm not mistaken, the 2nd edition had the front squat as the "light" day on advanced novice. Regardless if it did or not (my apologies if it didn't), you'll need to front squat if you want to do the olympic lifts competitively. I'd also recommend watching Rip's knee wrap video where he covers a wrap for olympic lifters (my knees thank you for that Rip!).


I've been doing high-bar the last few weeks and I wouldn't say there is no hamstring involvement, it's just reduced. While I personally prefer low-bar squats, I'm trying high-bar at the moment because I have a tendency to have some serious forward lean in the hole when I snatch, kind of like a low-bar position in the hole. I'm hoping work with a more vertical torso carries over.

[gregpall603]

It's obviously possible. But why are you asking me this is you recognize the purpose of the lower bar position?

Based on my limited experience, it seems performing BOTH the low and high bar squats are advantageous in snatch training: the former helps build the requisite strength for power -- a teaching of yours I emphatically agree with; plus I like the glute/hamstring involvement -- while the actual movement of the latter seems to better mimic the full snatch.

I guess the million-dollar question is whether or not fast/Olympic movements ALSO necessitate a faster squat in a program? I'm not qualified to answer the question; but I personally have difficulty going from the low-bar squat to the 'bottom' of the snatch/clean.

Why can't the high and low bar squats be regarded as complimentary lifts? One seems to promote better strength development, the other athleticism. Plus, squatting from the high-bar -- contrary to what my Olympic lifters say -- seems to negate the glutes and hamstrings.

Thanks again for your time, Coach.

[gregpall603]

It's obviously possible. But why are you asking me this is you recognize the purpose of the lower bar position?

Based on my limited experience, it seems performing BOTH the low and high bar squats are advantageous in snatch training: the former helps build the requisite strength for power -- a teaching of yours I emphatically agree with; plus I like the glute/hamstring involvement -- while the actual movement of the latter seems to share more in common with the full snatch.

I guess the million-dollar question is whether or not fast/Olympic movements ALSO necessitate a faster squat in a program? I'm not qualified to answer the question; but I personally have difficulty going from low-bar squats to cleans and snatches (especially at the bottom of each lift).

Thanks again for your time, Coach.

[gregpall603]

Don't fuck with the program. Do it as is, eat a metric fuck-ton, and get some goddamn sleep. If and/or when you reach a point where you've surpassed novice linear progression, you'll have acquired a sufficient level of strength to do whatever it is your heart desires.

If you're still confused, http://startingstrength.com/index.ph..._clarification

I agree: I'm inferring a more intermediate program with the snatching; and SS definitely works best when you go by the book and avoid the tempations of moving too quickly or tinkering. Last winter I took time to really learn the material before lifting.... It paid tremendous dividends....

Ultimately I have difficulties at the bottom of the full clean and full snatch using those SS principles with the deadlift and squat (especially at the bottom of the lift: knee angle, torso angle, velocity, etc.). That's why I wondered about a high-bar squat to bridge the gap.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Why can't the high and low bar squats be regarded as complimentary lifts? One seems to promote better strength development, the other athleticism. Plus, squatting from the high-bar -- contrary to what my Olympic lifters say -- seems to negate the glutes and hamstrings.

I'm interested in your reasoning behind the assertion that the Olympic squat promotes athleticism. It is essentially an uncoached squat. You must have read this somewhere on the internet.

Based on my limited experience, it seems performing BOTH the low and high bar squats are advantageous in snatch training: the former helps build the requisite strength for power -- a teaching of yours I emphatically agree with; plus I like the glute/hamstring involvement -- while the actual movement of the latter seems to share more in common with the full snatch.

Watch the way he recovers from the bottom. What does this look like to you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSxxa...eature=related

I guess the million-dollar question is whether or not fast/Olympic movements ALSO necessitate a faster squat in a program? I'm not qualified to answer the question; but I personally have difficulty going from low-bar squats to cleans and snatches (especially at the bottom of each lift).

Do you think that every aspect of a weightlifter's training must be explosive, when all of your snatch and C&J work is already explosive? How much weight can you squat explosively, and if you restrict yourself to squatting that much weight, how can you get stronger?

Ultimately I have difficulties at the bottom of the full clean and full snatch using those SS principles with the deadlift and squat (especially at the bottom of the lift: knee angle, torso angle, velocity, etc.). That's why I wondered about a high-bar squat to bridge the gap.

If you are unable to convert your strength into a technical application, you may lack the athletic ability to do the sport. When you walk, do you find yourself walking in your squat stance?