Are fiber and fibrous vegetabes necessary?

[Maglavar]

So I know you and Layne Norton are big advocates of getting a lot of fiber and of eating fibrous vegetables. I believe Layne has even advocated as many as 50 g of fiber a day (holy crap!). But what exactly are the beneficial effects of consuming fiber and fibrous vegetables? I have read Good Calories Bad Calories, and although I know he based some of his arguments on false premises and only presented one side of the issue, he does make a pretty good case that fiber does very little except move waste through your digestive tract. Assuming you have no issues taking a dump and are able to control your calorie intake, is fiber that beneficial?

Also, fibrous vegetables seem to mostly be beneficial because of the high concentration of vitamins and minerals. But other whole foods (including meat) have relatively high quantities of vitamins and minerals as well. And you could always take vitamin/mineral supplements. I guess vegetables also have antioxidants (to be honest, I have no idea what this means and have never seen the antioxidant effect quantified). But don't vegetables also contain natural pesticides? There was an article in Power Magazine a couple of months ago about how organic fruits and vegetables are bred to contain a ton of natural pesticides. So either you are consuming a ton of natural pesticides through organic produce or some natural pesticides and some artifical pesticides through regular produce.

Confession time: I hate fibrous vegetables. I have 95% of my diet nailed, but the biggest obstacle I face is forcing myself to eat some fibrous vegetables. So are fiber and fibrous vegetables truly necessary? And, if so, what are the top 5 fibrous vegetables I should eat to get the most benefit from my suffering? And are fiber supplements like Metamucil acceptable for reaching my daily fiber intake?

Just to give you an idea of my diet if it matters: about 40% protein, 25-30% fat, 30-35% carbs
Protein comes from beef, chicken, eggs, egg whites, shrimp, and non-fat greek yogurt
Fat comes from beef and eggs, macadamia nuts, 90% cocoa dark chocolate, and occassionally bacon and coconut/olive oil
Carbs come from white rice, oats, sweet potatoes, and fruits
Carbs on refeed days (twice per week) come from the sources above as well as bagels, lactose free milk, fruit sorbet (sometimes), and fat free frozen yogurt (sometimes)
That is about 98% of what I eat. I very rarely deviate from this list. Also, I am currently calorie restricted, eating on average 12 cal/lb.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

You don't "need" fiber for any specific process. I can't speak for Layne, but I think he would agree that at least part of the rationale behind fiber rec's is that it helps control another variable in nutrition, that is the thermogenic effect of fiber as well as glycemic index/load of food (which may or may not be important to some) that's seen in the diet. Fiber is fermented in the large intestine of the GI tract into short chain fatty acids (proprionic and butyric acid mainly) and also stimulate production of mucous in the epithelium lining the GI tube, which lubes the tube for transit.

So, in short, is fiber beneficial outside of it's thermogenecity, control of glycemic factors, satiety, potential health benefits (that haven't been fully elucidated), etc.? I don't know, but it is controlling for another factor that contributes to body composition results and that's why I (and likely) Layne have specific fiber recommendations. 50g is about the max I'd recommend for someone on a very high carbohydrate diet (600g+), as too much fiber interferes with uptake/absorption of nutrients and micronutrients. Without seeing the specific recommendations of Dr. Norton I can't comment on where the number 50 came from, but if I had to bet it's an upper limit for fiber recs for a particular person. He's a really smart guy and I seriously doubt there's much, if anything, him and I don't see eye to eye upon besides Tampa being a great sport town :-)

tl;dr? Set a fiber goal and hit it day in and day out. Adjust your carbohydrates from there, as if you don't, you're actually adjusting 2 variables instead of 1.

[Brian Harlin]

Artichokes, avocado and sweet peas are good sources of fiber and may be more preferable to you than broccoli, cabbage, Brussels sprouts, etc.
Also yams have 1 more gram of fiber per serving than sweet potatoes. Hey, every little bit helps!

[RickBarker]

When you say fiber is "controlling for another factor that contributes to body composition results," which factor are you referring to? Thermogenecity?

So... from a pure results standpoint (body composition) is an increase in total daily fiber beneficial if total carbs are kept the same (i.e. 200g carbs with 30g from fiber vs. 200g carbs with 5g from fiber)? Is there any benefit to the fiber coming from natural sources (i.e. vegetables) vs. supplemental powder?

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

When you say fiber is "controlling for another factor that contributes to body composition results," which factor are you referring to? Thermogenecity?

Yes, as fiber is thermogenic, but a certain fiber goal also controls (at least in part) for glycemic load/index of meals.

So... from a pure results standpoint (body composition) is an increase in total daily fiber beneficial if total carbs are kept the same (i.e. 200g carbs with 30g from fiber vs. 200g carbs with 5g from fiber)? Is there any benefit to the fiber coming from natural sources (i.e. vegetables) vs. supplemental powder?

Better results? Maybe. If the added fiber reduces the amount of starch to the appropriate level then yes, it's more advantageous. If 200g of starch is the appropriate carbohydrate number, and don't forget, this likely affects protein and possibly fat totals too, then it would be worse. I haven't found any difference between supplement and natural fiber outside of micronutrient differences.

[RickBarker]

So this might be missing the point, but one more question.

Say someone needs 165g starchy carbs, would it change their results if they got that 165g with no fiber vs. if they got 165g starchy carbs with 35g fiber for 200g total carbs? I assumed from your previous answer that starch and fiber are processed differently... I'm pretty new to all of this, so sorry if this question doesn't make any sense lol.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

So this might be missing the point, but one more question.

Say someone needs 165g starchy carbs, would it change their results if they got that 165g with no fiber vs. if they got 165g starchy carbs with 35g fiber for 200g total carbs? I assumed from your previous answer that starch and fiber are processed differently... I'm pretty new to all of this, so sorry if this question doesn't make any sense lol.

Best answer I can give is maybe. Fiber is definitely thermogenic, tends to be satiating (not considering psychological input to this), is present in many nutrient rich foods, slows digestion/glycemic response, etc. These may or may not make a huge difference depending on the individual, but in my opinion, they do.

[tnumrych]

I wish my grad and and undergrad nutrition professors actually elucidated the fiber recommendations more than the standard "YOU NEED TO EAT TONS OF FIBER CAUSE IT CURES CANCER, CVD, AND BRINGS DEAD PUPPIES BACK TO LIFE !!!" line we've heard over the years.

[Jordan Feigenbaum]

I wish my grad and and undergrad nutrition professors actually elucidated the fiber recommendations more than the standard "YOU NEED TO EAT TONS OF FIBER CAUSE IT CURES CANCER, CVD, AND BRINGS DEAD PUPPIES BACK TO LIFE !!!" line we've heard over the years.

It's certainly correlated with lots of good things, but as far as it being causative well, that's a different story.

[hellca]

He talks about it a little bit in this video

http://youtu.be/G6H2edyPLU8?t=8m4s

He quotes 40-60 grams of fiber a day for his own personal macros, and warns of the dangers of too much fiber.

Seems on board with Jordan on all the main points.