"Direct" ab work?

[Aaron Montgomery]

I've noticed the last couple weeks that my abs and obliques have been getting rather sore after "heavy" squat and deadlift sessions. I think the last time I felt sore ab muscles was when I did P90x ab-ripper for the first time 8 years ago (don't worry, I haven't touched P90x in a long time).

Is there any point to doing planks or using an ab wheel if I'm wanting my deadlift and squat numbers to keep climbing? I use a belt for all working sets (current PRs: SQ 327.5x3 and DL 355x5). I'm wondering if sudden sore ab muscles means they need a little more "direct" work. My abs are twitching in random places as I write this post...

I'm hoping the general consensus is that ab work is a general waste of time, because I hate doing it.

[Meshuggah]

I always do direct ab work, mainly with my 40 year old ab wheel. You cant have a strong lower back without having strong abs.
You are only as strong as your weakest link.

[SJB]

I always do direct ab work, mainly with my 40 year old ab wheel. You cant have a strong lower back without having strong abs.
You are only as strong as your weakest link.

This, but I prefer a 6 year old Ab Wheel.

[Cody]

If you have a strong valsalva, direct ab work won't tangibly improve your squat or deadlift. If you want stronger, more hypertrophied abs, direct ab work is excellent.

Somewhere in this forum, I had this discussion with SSC CJ Gotcher that fleshes out the argument about why the powerlifts are shit ab exercises, just like the deadlift is a shit grip exercise. See if you can Google it up.

In my opinion, "anti extension" work like ab wheels and planks is just okay. I prefer movements that have a ROM to them (for the same reason captains of crush are infinitely superior for grip vs deadlifts and isometric holds). To that end, abmat situps are excellent, as are dragon flags, leg raises, wood choppers, and any variations of these with a rotating component.

[sbrl_19]

If you want stronger, more hypertrophied abs, direct ab work is excellent. . . . In my opinion, "anti extension" work like ab wheels and planks is just okay. I prefer movements that have a ROM to them . . . . To that end, abmat situps are excellent, as are dragon flags, leg raises, wood choppers, and any variations of these with a rotating component.

I've always liked kneeling weighted crunches using a cable w/ ropes. I do these now kneeing in front of a lat pulldown machine, with my back to the machine). I like the ability the load it while keeping my back set. Thoughts on those?

[George Christiansen]

Failing because of weak abs would be the sign that you possibly need direct ab work.

Soreness shows up for all sorts of random reasons, so take note, but don't worry about it too much. It could be that you just crossed the threshold where your abs had to really work to help you squat and deadlift.

I personally wouldn't bother until you feel that you abs are the weak link in your squat (you fail to be able to brace well or something).

[perman]

In my opinion, "anti extension" work like ab wheels and planks is just okay. I prefer movements that have a ROM to them (for the same reason captains of crush are infinitely superior for grip vs deadlifts and isometric holds). To that end, abmat situps are excellent, as are dragon flags, leg raises, wood choppers, and any variations of these with a rotating component.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do a hanging leg raise where you raise the toes to a bar you're holding, that seems to me to be basically the same ROM of a ab wheel, the difference being that gravity is acting along a different direction.

Meaning your argument may be true specifically for training the abs, but you're definitely working lots of muscles hard if you can do a standing ab wheel, even if that's not necessarily the abs. The ab wheel just seems like a legit core exercise on it's own, regardless of whether it's good for abs.

[MBasic]

If you have a strong valsalva, direct ab work won't tangibly improve your squat or deadlift. If you want stronger, more hypertrophied abs, direct ab work is excellent.

Somewhere in this forum, I had this discussion with SSC CJ Gotcher that fleshes out the argument about why the powerlifts are shit ab exercises, just like the deadlift is a shit grip exercise. See if you can Google it up.

In my opinion, "anti extension" work like ab wheels and planks is just okay. I prefer movements that have a ROM to them (for the same reason captains of crush are infinitely superior for grip vs deadlifts and isometric holds). To that end, abmat situps are excellent, as are dragon flags, leg raises, wood choppers, and any variations of these with a rotating component.

any kind of loaded rotating or loading flexing movement with the spine will cause a terminal case of spondylolisthesis , your future kids to be born with spondylolisthesis, and the space time continuum to be torn asunder.

Press 2.5 is good for your abs, so I'd go with that.

[Cody]

I've always liked kneeling weighted crunches using a cable w/ ropes. Thoughts on those?

Never done them personally, but lots of bodybuilders do them. If you like em, do em I say.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do a hanging leg raise where you raise the toes to a bar you're holding, that seems to me to be basically the same ROM of a ab wheel, the difference being that gravity is acting along a different direction.

Meaning your argument may be true specifically for training the abs, but you're definitely working lots of muscles hard if you can do a standing ab wheel, even if that's not necessarily the abs. The ab wheel just seems like a legit core exercise on it's own, regardless of whether it's good for abs.

Sure, the ab wheel is a good exercise. But, if you do an ab rollout then do a leg raise, you'll note they don't affect the abs the same. In the rollout, the abs are taxed isometrically as you're stretched out at the bottom, and not really at all when at the top. The leg raise is taxing abs and hip flexors in flexion at the top, where the abs did actually go through a rom (that can be loaded, btw) and not at all at the bottom. They are not at all the same movement.

any kind of loaded rotating or loading flexing movement with the spine will cause a terminal case of spondylolisthesis , your future kids to be born with spondylolisthesis, and the space time continuum to be torn asunder.

Press 2.5 is good for your abs, so I'd go with that.

I lulzd.

[MBasic]

In all seriousness, I like the roll out/ab wheel.
It's more of a "full body" exercise: lats, tri's, some shoulder and back stabilizers, maybe your pecs . . . hip flexors.
Like anything else, it depends how you do it.