SS and Jiu Jitsu

[Ulysses Everett McGill]

Background: I'm 40 years old, +250 lbs., new to BJJ/grappling but an old guy in the weight room. When I started BJJ, I decided I needed to train like everyone else off the mat. Conditioning focused, high volume, kettlebells, bodyweight drills, etc. What I discovered over a couple of months was the volume was way too much and my strength, the only real attribute I can bring to grappling as a novice, declined significantly.

Question: I want to get back to basics. I'm starting a lifting program, 2 x week (I roll three days per week) using your very simple template laid out in SS, "Programming" (sqt, bnch, DL) (sqt, MP, PCs). I am going to do some easy running two other days in the week.

Any comments/guidance on how to incoporate SS with BJJ?

Bob

[cervicornis]

The bottom line, it will be very tough to do both. I've been training BJJ for 3-4 years and started SS in November. SS to get stronger, in the hopes that the strength would carry over to my jiu-jitsu (it has).

You have to remember that both activities are best approached from a longterm perspective - a marathon, not a sprint. If you're doing SS as programmed, which is probably a good idea, that means 3 days/week with plenty of rest to recover. I found that I was only able to roll 1 day/week, because I was frankly wiped out most of the time. I'm 34 so not much younger than you. SS just kicked my ass in terms of feeling tired, stiff, etc. If you're doing SS full-bore, it will feel the same as training BJJ 6 days/week.

I don't know what your goals are, but if you want to get stronger, I would suggest that you prioritize SS for at least 3 months, maybe rolling a day, two days max per week. No running whatsoever. Eat lots to sustain your growth. In a few months, you'll be a strong mother f'er and then you can switch it up.

Food for thought - I was rolling with a 185 lb. brown belt today who typically plays very heavy from the top. This is the first time I've rolled with him in about two months. I was able to fight off his attacks and then I literally pressed him up into the air and tossed him off me, and was able to scramble to a better position. No technique really, it was a pure strength move. Never would have been able to do that before.

[Scrofula]

I'm a grappler, trying to balance strength training with my sport. For me, grappling is a priority, and the whole point of the strength work is to give me more options on the mat. This means I can't go all out on SS -- two workouts a week, eating slightly above maintenance.

Since you're new to the sport, one option is to scale back your BJJ, go get strong, and start BJJ in earnest once you're done with SS, with some low volume weight training on the side. If grappling is the higher priority, I think this is a bad idea. Strength will help you on the mat, but it will take a few months of experience to learn the difference between muscling bad technique and using muscle to aid technique (so no, strength is not the most important attribute a novice can bring to the mat). I think you're better off doing what you are now, focusing on your BJJ, with two strength workouts a week. Though the running may not make sense if your practices are intense, with lots of free play.

Strength is just one of many skills that will help your grappling, and rarely a decisive skill among recreational grapplers (because the skill differential is so large).

[BigJavs]

If I were you, I'd probably do 5/3/1 with limited assistance work. That way, you can still make progress, but you don't have to commit to squatting 3 days a week. You can even program 5/3/1 two days a week. You won't make gains as fast as if you committed to SS but you'll get stronger and be able to recover better on days you roll.

I would still get Rip's books so you learn how to do the lifts correctly.

[Scrofula]

I was thinking about 5/3/1 as well, but I figured I might as well do linear progression for as long as possible first, being a novice in the weight room without a meaningful 1RM. Since the OP has more experience, it might make more sense for him.

[darkcied]

What is it that you want to get out of your BJJ training? Do you want to get better at BJJ or do you want to "beat people up"?

This is not to say that being strong is not important, but BJJ is a technical skill and relying on your strength as a novice will actually hold you back from improving your techniques. The purpose of many of the techniques are to overcome strength.

Now I've rolled in the heavyweight division and I understand that some of those boys are ungodly strong, but as a newb if you are powering out of things rather than using good technique you are doing yourself a disservice.

And that gets to my point of the Novice Effect use BJJ to get better at BJJ especially as a new guy. This is where you are laying the foundation of your career. If your foundation is based on strength primarily you will get burned out on the sport quickly, and your improvements will be stunted. By drilling techniques and rolling a lot (even getting beaten) will build a solid BJJ foundation and you will get better at stringing together a solid game. If you are the strength guy, you are a muscle strain from being a pile of crap on the mat.

Now this is Starting Strength forum so please don't take this as me saying don't lift, or don't get strong. I'm saying that if your goal is to get better at BJJ practice BJJ first. When you get proficient, then worry about getting stronger. If your goal is to be strong (independent of BJJ) then by all means get after it. But in any case where you put your focus is where you will make your gains.

Just my $0.02

[peez]

For context: I'm 42, and I've been doing (I can't bring myself to say "play") Judo for >30 years. I'm a Shodan (i.e. black belt) and I coach. Started SS in January this year to rehab after meniscus surgery to help stabilize my knees which both have loose ACLs. I work out twice a week for 2.5 hours. First hour is mostly coaching the juniors, the rest is the intense bit. I also do two shortish SS workouts per week.

I have to say increased strength helps me hold my own against heavier (and that usually also means slower) opponents 30-50 lbs more than my meager 185 lbs. However, for the lighter opponents, speed and technique are so much more important that the benefit is limited. While I could sometimes muscle though a throw, pin, arm bar or choke, for me that's not what the sport is really about. I was able to do that before SS, it just became easier - but undesirable nonetheless.

As a novice in BJJ - since the mat work it quite similar to Judo, for the first few years at least I would recommend to focus on your technique. You'll get the most bang for the time spent. Keep up the strength training, fit it in between BJJ, and all should be fine. BJJ the day after intense lifting is tough.

Since Judo is my first love I am currently working on a "compromise schedule" - twice a week SS, twice a week Judo. My body adjusted to this, somewhat reluctantly at first.

Personally I don't run and I don't think it transfers to BJJ or strength training. Work your ass off during BJJ and barbell training - that's plenty of cardio.

[Cody]

Darkcied, why the fuck did you reply to a 4 year old thread? I'm willing to bet the OP has figured it out by now. Furthermore, your logic is pretty flawed. A read through Rippetoe's forum should clear up why for you.

[peez]

Cody, you're right, that's embarrassing - I never checked the date of the original post - just saw the recent post in my SS newsletter and thought I respond. Oh well, a few bits wasted ...

[darkcied]

Darkcied, why the fuck did you reply to a 4 year old thread? I'm willing to bet the OP has figured it out by now. Furthermore, your logic is pretty flawed. A read through Rippetoe's forum should clear up why for you.

Cody, I would love for you to point out said flaw in logic. If a basketball player can't shoot or dribble, getting stronger will not help his game much, he'll have a stronger shitty dribble and a more powerful shitty shot. If I picked up tennis today, and I can't serve or return shots, fast sprinting speed would be a great asset and a 500 lb deadlift is great, but if I shave time off my sprints and up my deads I will still suck at tennis until I become competent at the game.

With time in the sport measured in months your barely wiping your own ass in terms of skill. I didn't say don't lift, or don't get stronger, just that until you are competent you can't actually apply the strength. If you are getting beat because your opponents are equally or less skilled but stronger then GOD yes getting stronger is the answer, but if you are incompetent in your sport especially a skill sport you just started and you are getting beat by people with better skills the answer to your problem is likely not found in strength. Being strong makes what you do more powerful, but if it's power with no focus it's a 100 mph serve into the net.

The reason I replied is that someone else may have a similar concern and looked to this forum for an answer. Having a few years of BJJ and several years of Judo under my belt and having watched strong guys make this very mistake only to wash out after a few months when they stop progressing and are only able to have success against significantly weaker or newer opponents. I thought I would share some of my experience. Getting strong is awesome and Starting Strength is probably the best way to get there, it will not however make you good at a skill (other than the big 5 lifts) it will only amplify the skills you have (especially for a beginner).