Kyphosis and lifting

[boatman]

Just wondering if you have any experience with people with Scheuermanns or a hunched back in general.

I watched one of your videos on youtube about high and low bar squats, I can just about do high bar squats because my arms can't really go back any more without causing discomfort, but I can't do low bar.

The problem is that I can't bent my back a lot, so in the deadlift and squats when I'm supposed to push my chest out, I can only push it far enough so my back is flat.

Should I just do best I can or should I avoid these exercises?

Thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Search function.

[boatman]

I searched and found one thread that was over two years old

http://startingstrength.com/resource...37&postcount=2

I was hoping you would have met somebody since.

I really can't find much information on Google and most is from people speculating.

The reason I am not rushing to the doctor as most people suggest is because I know a lot of them will just say don't do a certain exercise as soon as you tell them your knee hurts or whatever. But I think I will have to just in case.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yeah, I'm not much help here. Sorry. But there are a few things that we can assume. If your vertebral bodies are solid, training is unlikely to damage them. You just get into the most thoracic extension you can produce and get strong. If I had a client with this condition, this is how we'd proceed.

[MazdaMatt]

Have you done any weight training in the past?

My girlfriend's fairly hunchy back (not so bad as to seek medical advise) has straightened out in the 8 months that she's been doing barbell and dumbbell exercises. She's not doing SS so her barbell use is much less, but it has been nothing but helpful.

Giving up bench pressing and flies for a while and focusing on rowing and overhead pressing seemed to help her condition the fastest.

---

I just looked up Scheuermanns and it appears to be a worse condition than my girlfriend's kyphosis. YMMV.

[FatButWeak]

I am a devoted Rippetodian (is that the term?) who has these same issues/questions because of my 9 year old daughter. She has an extremely kyphotic posture she inherited from my wife. We brought her to a juvenile orthopoedic spine specialist who examined her and described her as being kyphotic but within tolerances and recommended physical therapy to loosen up her hips and pelvic tilt.

I then took his prescription for physical therapy to several physical therapy places and was appalled at the level of education and intelligence I found there. Evidently, none of the staff had read Starting Strength, PPST or Strong Enough! I asked one doctor who was in charge of a PT clinic whether they used barbells and she was horrified, saying "Oh no! We would never use heavy weights with a child!" No one said anything about "heavy weights". I asked about barbells. She then went on to say they do use rubber bands! What the fuck? Resistance training with fucking bungee cords is okay but a properly loaded barbell is not? What's the logic there? Answer: none.

So I have been working with my daughter (who considers herself a serious martial artist -very cute!) doing low bar back squats, presses, pull-ups and face pulls. She is only nine and very skinny, so I'm taking it slow with her and trying to keep it fun. Our goal is to strengthen her musculature in a way that causes a decrease in her kyphosis by both evening out her degree of pelvic tilt, and strengthening the upper back muscles.

To the kyphotic lifters out there, re-read Starting Strength several times. It is the best resource there is. My copy is heavily highlighted!

For kyphotic lifters, in addition to re-reading SS several times, an "okay" resource is T-nation.com. Use their search function for articles called: "Hips Don't Lie" "Heal that Hunchback" and "Neanderthal No More". These are well written (if poorly named!) articles aimed at a readership that is more educated than the typical gym rat. In them, causes of kyphosis are discussed and narrowly tailored exercises are recommended. Be forewarned that they do recommend some isolation-type exercises for this dysfunction, but if you are well versed in Rippetoadian thought, you should be okay. Some of the exercises can be decent accesory exercises for squats, deads, presses, bench presses and cleans.

Good Luck and keep us posted, you crazy hunchback!

[Mark Rippetoe]

I am a devoted Rippetodian (is that the term?)

I'm afraid the term that will be applied is "Rippetoe Nutswinger."

Good luck with your daughter.

[boatman]

Thanks everyone. I'll look up the T-nation site.

[Kyle Schuant]

I work with formerly sedentary beginners, so I get a lot of people with some degree of increased kyphosis. I have found that more pulling than pressing motions works well to reduce it, combined with improving flexibility of the shoulder joint generally - pec stretches, etc. The lifter must be conscious of avoiding "effort neck", the shoulder hunch we do when reps get hard, as this tightens upper traps etc and doesn't help.

If it's actually spinal* then you can never get rid of it, but you can reduce its severity or at the least stop it getting worse (same goes for scoliosis).

And as for squats, front squats are good. You use less weight, and progress more slowly - but you get leg/hip work done without having a bar press directly against your spine. Obviously the exercise has a different emphasis compared to back squats,

* this is the technical distinction medicos usually make - Scheuermann's is the actual vertebrae being misshapen, increased kyphosis is just muscular from a lifestyle or affected posture - from doing desk work, being very tall or large-breasted, etc. Obviously we can change strengthen or stretch muscles, we can't do anything about bones.

[bruce]

Read Anatomy Trains recently and was interested to learn that fascia has the ability to remodel itself to whatever position it is exposed to. So a kyphotic posture would, over time, be reinforced by the surrounding fascia. The process of course can be reversed but it does mean that we are fighting against more than just weak and/or tight muscles in trying to correct such problems. I think it's fair to say that many people with strong backs have poor posture and that it takes more than strengthening to overcome these issues. Remembering throughout the day to hold the correct posture is equally important, and little 'triggers' to remind us to do this can be useful. I appreciate this doesn't really apply to the OP whose problem sounded more spinal, just some general thoughts.