squat/deadlift form check

[mattciupak]

posted a form check a while back. now that i'm moving into heavy (relatively speaking) weight territory I figured i'd post another one.

squats from Friday (in order):




this is my set of deadlifts from earlier today:

the weight is 260lbs. first rep was done with a DOH grip, rest were mixed. the only rep I like out of these is the first one.

what is there I can fix? I have lifting shoes coming on Friday, so i'll probably post another form check when I use them for squats (hoping for a good fit).
I also notice my deadlift is awfully close to my squat compared to some other people on here. is it a form issue or is it just due to anthropometry?

[pjthiel]

The squats don't look too bad at first glance, although the angle makes it a little hard to tell. I counted the depth as a little high on at least a couple of reps across the sets... but overall, not bad. Foot position is good, knees mostly stay out, and when they come in, I saw you correct it. It's a pretty good low-bar position, elbows stay up. Be sure to keep tight right through the rep.

Deadlift looks like it needs work. Your setup isn't horrible, but the angles are all wrong when you actually start the pull. For me, your back angle is the clearest indicator, i.e. the angle your back makes with the floor. As best I can tell, it's too flat. i.e. your legs are too straight and your chest is pointing down at the floor -- almost horizontal. Even on your "good" rep, the first one, I also notice that you ass moves before the bar. Again, this flattens your back even more before the bar moves. This angle you are pulling from takes a lot of the effort out of the quads and glutes, and directs it at the lower back... hard going, as your set shows toward the later reps.

To correct it, I recommend the following:

1. Setup as you do now.

2. As you take your breath and settle into the pulling position proper, you need to drop your ass down more. How much more is hard to say, but I'd guess at about 4-6".

3. The bar should move first, before anything else. If anything else moves before the bar, pulling effort is being wasted/absorbed in the movement.

As things stand, I suspect you come off the DL with your lower back exhausted. Once you get this right, the lower back will be tired, but you'll feel it in the quads and glutes just as much -- especially the glutes.

Reps three, four and five deteriorate rapidly and you are starting to round your lower back during the lift. This is dangerous. Consider dropping the weight until you can pull with improved form and maintain lumber flexion for the full five reps.

Be aware that this new, correct angle -- once you hit it -- will draw the bar in closer to your shins. I know this because I have two lines of scabs up my shins from the DL. Take Rip's advice and consider getting and wearing lifting pants or long football socks on DL days. They help protect your shins and save us from getting your blood on our hands.

[mattciupak]

The squats don't look too bad at first glance, although the angle makes it a little hard to tell. I counted the depth as a little high on at least a couple of reps across the sets... but overall, not bad. Foot position is good, knees mostly stay out, and when they come in, I saw you correct it. It's a pretty good low-bar position, elbows stay up. Be sure to keep tight right through the rep.

Deadlift looks like it needs work. Your setup isn't horrible, but the angles are all wrong when you actually start the pull. For me, your back angle is the clearest indicator, i.e. the angle your back makes with the floor. As best I can tell, it's too flat. i.e. your legs are too straight and your chest is pointing down at the floor -- almost horizontal. Even on your "good" rep, the first one, I also notice that you ass moves before the bar. Again, this flattens your back even more before the bar moves. This angle you are pulling from takes a lot of the effort out of the quads and glutes, and directs it at the lower back... hard going, as your set shows toward the later reps.

To correct it, I recommend the following:

1. Setup as you do now.

2. As you take your breath and settle into the pulling position proper, you need to drop your ass down more. How much more is hard to say, but I'd guess at about 4-6".

3. The bar should move first, before anything else. If anything else moves before the bar, pulling effort is being wasted/absorbed in the movement.

As things stand, I suspect you come off the DL with your lower back exhausted. Once you get this right, the lower back will be tired, but you'll feel it in the quads and glutes just as much -- especially the glutes.

Reps three, four and five deteriorate rapidly and you are starting to round your lower back during the lift. This is dangerous. Consider dropping the weight until you can pull with improved form and maintain lumber flexion for the full five reps.

Be aware that this new, correct angle -- once you hit it -- will draw the bar in closer to your shins. I know this because I have two lines of scabs up my shins from the DL. Take Rip's advice and consider getting and wearing lifting pants or long football socks on DL days. They help protect your shins and save us from getting your blood on our hands.

thanks for the reply.

i'm assuming the lifting shoes will help me with my depth and i'll no longer have to worry about high squats.

i'll definitely try to drop my ass down lower. the problem I had before was having my ass too low and as a result stiff-legging it up even more so than now because my ass was shooting all the way up.

during the actual movement, I feel like my hamstrings are doing almost all of the work. afterwards though, I get a low back "pump".

despite my efforts to prevent my back from rounding, it still did. I was squeezing my abs as hard as I possibly could. i'll lower the weight and work my way back up. i'd probably benefit from a belt, but I don't have one.

thanks again.

[MikeC1]

I actually thought your deadlifts looked good on the whole. You hitched the last two reps, so you'll have to do a better job coordinating the top of the pull.

Yes, start with your butt just a little bit lower, maybe not 4-6" lower though. Your back isn't really rounding though, so don't worry too much about it. Well except for the last rep which it looks like you rushed. On every rep, tell yourself to set your back, lock it in place, pull out all the slack in your arms and body, get your breath, then ease the bar off the ground.

I'd also recommend not changing your grip during the set, and not standing up between reps. That really hurts your chances of completing the set, especially the standing up. You can still alternate your mixed grip between workouts.

Your squats are textbook SS squats. They look below parallel to me. They'll feel better when you start using your shoes.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

Deadlift [...] setup isn't horrible, but the angles are all wrong when you actually start the pull. For me, your back angle is the clearest indicator, i.e. the angle your back makes with the floor. As best I can tell, it's too flat. i.e. your legs are too straight and your chest is pointing down at the floor -- almost horizontal. Even on your "good" rep, the first one, I also notice that you ass moves before the bar. Again, this flattens your back even more before the bar moves. This angle you are pulling from takes a lot of the effort out of the quads and glutes, and directs it at the lower back... hard going, as your set shows toward the later reps.

To correct it, I recommend the following:

1. Setup as you do now.

2. As you take your breath and settle into the pulling position proper, you need to drop your ass down more. How much more is hard to say, but I'd guess at about 4-6".

FYI:

The earlier printings of the book had a typo. The middle of the foot means the middle of the ENTIRE foot, not the instep. One inch from the shin is directly over the mid-foot. And once you're in the proper position, you don't drop your butt -- you lift your chest. Don't lower the hips after you touch the bar with your shins.

Here is the copy from the poster we have up here in the gym:


The Deadlift: Perfect Every Time



1. Take your stance, feet a little closer than you think it needs to be and with your toes out more than you like. Your shins should be about one inch from the bar, no more. This places the bar over the mid-foot – the whole foot, not the mid-instep.

2. Take your grip on the bar, leaving your hips up. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.

3. Drop your knees forward and out until your shins touch the bar. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.

4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE.

5. Squeeze the bar off the floor and drag it up your legs in contact with your skin/sweats until it locks out at the top. If you have done the above sequence precisely as described, the bar will come off the ground in a perfectly vertical path. All the slack will have come out of the arms and hamstrings in step 4, the bar will not jerk off the ground, and your back will be in good extension. You will perceive that your hips are too high, but if you have completed step 4 correctly, the scapulas, bar, and mid-foot will be in vertical alignment and the pull will be perfect. The pull will seem "shorter" this way.

That back angle is just what happens sometimes with people who have Matt's anthropometry.

I actually thought your deadlifts looked good on the whole.

+1.

And my opinion is that your butt doesn't need to be lower. The bar is going up in a nice straight line, your weight stays over midfoot, and the bar stays in close and skims your legs all the way up. It looks to me like these are the angles that work for your proportions. How does the pull feel to you?

You start off with your back set nicely for each rep (except for that last rushed rep, as Mike points out), but I think you need to work a little more on keeping your back locked tight throughout. Try looking ahead more instead of down. This usually helps people keep their chest "squeezed up" better, and this may help fix the minor issue you have with your hips shooting up a little first.

[pjthiel]

Yes, start with your butt just a little bit lower, maybe not 4-6" lower though. Your back isn't really rounding though, so don't worry too much about it. Well except for the last rep which it looks like you rushed. On every rep, tell yourself to set your back, lock it in place, pull out all the slack in your arms and body, get your breath, then ease the bar off the ground.

Good points Mike. I recognize we're all different and that anthropology significantly affects the starting position. 4-6" was my best guess, but I maintain that I feel the hips are high at the start for his build. In the first rep, he also sets himself, and then as he starts the movement, the butt lifts an inch, maybe two ... and then the bar moves. You describe it differently to me ("set your back, lock it in place, pull out all the slack in your arms and body")... but the effect is the same -- by the time he's pulling, the bar should be the first thing to move.

[pjthiel]

You start off with your back set nicely for each rep (except for that last rushed rep, as Mike points out), but I think you need to work a little more on keeping your back locked tight throughout. Try looking ahead more instead of down. This usually helps people keep their chest "squeezed up" better, and this may help fix the minor issue you have with your hips shooting up a little first.

Maybe we're just describing things differently, Spar. Where you say "keeping your back locked tight throughout", I referred to that as rounding of the back. I like your description better, and the rounding was slight, but the tightness and lumbar extension the OP had on the first rep was flattening on rep three and gone by five. To his credit he got it back at the top of each lift.

I also agree that the cue of chest up is better than me describing "hips down" -- despite that being the outcome.

Also -- I messed up in my original post when describing the lack of arch as "lumbar flexion"; I meant to say lumbar extension. I just wanted to clear that up, versus edit my original post.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

I also agree that the cue of chest up is better than me describing "hips down" -- despite that being the outcome.

Actually, it's not the same outcome. Squeezing the chest up doesn't actually move the chest all that much; it helps maintain spinal extension.

We actually do legitimately disagree here. Matt will have to figure out which advice works for him.

I'm basing my assessment on seeing how leggy guys were DLing at the seminar I attended. I think the fact that Matt is not one of these stick thin teenagers (good job on that, Matt) makes it harder to notice, but if you take screen shots of him and diagram out his proportions and look at where his limbs are at the bottom of the squat, he clearly looks long-legged. At least to me.

[MikeC1]

His legs are longer than normal, but he is still a little too forward is what I saw at least, based on how far his lats have to hold his arms back to keep the bar close. I think you could also make the case that his scapular spine is a little ahead of the bar in some reps too. At any rate, it's all fairly minor, so I won't be hurt if you disagree.

[Gunnhild Bruno]

His legs are longer than normal, but he is still a little too forward is what I saw at least, based on how far his lats have to hold his arms back to keep the bar close. I think you could also make the case that his scapular spine is a little ahead of the bar in some reps too. At any rate, it's all fairly minor, so I won't be hurt if you disagree.

Actually, you may be right. I have a hard time sometimes with "slightly off" viewing angles. on video.