Knee Pain During DL and Rows

[Dlk93]

Hey Coaches,
I've developed some pretty regular 2-3 pain scale pain in my left knee over the past 1 1/2 months. It doesn't get any better with training and in fact is made worse by deadlifts and rows.

Some stats:
Age: 24
Training Status: Early Intermediate
Program: The Bridge, 6 weeks in
Height: 5'9"
Bodyweight: 189 (I'm gaining.)
BodyFat: 13-15%
Also, my feet are naturally pointed more out when i walk/stand if that's relevant.

Lifts for fahves:
Squat: 345
Deadlift: 365

So, from what I'm aware, knee pain tends to come from squat form, but I don't ever get knee pain during squatting, at least not until going for heavy 3s or singles. I've recently (about a week ago) got some knee sleeves to see if that would help, but the pain has gotten just a little worse. The pain is at its worst right after a set of DL's or Rows. Whenever I go to walk away and take the pressure off of my leg, a sharp pain shoots up on the outside of my knee cap. It bothers me mildly throughout the day when walking. Never hurts when sitting for prolonged periods.

I hate asking pain related questions but I'm just at a loss at this point after giving it beyond a month and the fact that it gets worse with training.

I haven't recorded regular squats in a while but here's my latest Pin Squats. The knees come in on the ascent. Is it "too much" (again, nothing hurts after squats but of course correlation =/= causation):
YouTube

And here's DL. Could not deadlifting in shoes cause the pain, if my feet are collapsing in or #It'sNotThatHeavy. What looks like me tripping after the set is me wincing from the pain:
YouTube

[Tom Campitelli]

I don't know if I understand where it hurts. The outside of your knee cap is not very specific. Your knees come in a little more on the squat than I would like. There is nothing injurious about your deads. Do your knees hurt when you pull in weightlifting shoes. If you haven't done so in a while, try and see.

[Dlk93]

So after looking up some pictures of the knee, I'd say the pain centers around the lateral collateral ligament. I also experimented with bodyweight squatting at different stances and it seems that the wider I go and the more I shove my knees out, the more it hurts, and I noticed the pain even extends into my groin when exaggerating the knees out/wide stance.

Also, I've had someone notice that my knees may be getting too far out at the bottom of my pin squat. I've had a habit of pushing the knees too far out, so all of that together makes a pretty good case for my knees being too far out being the problem.

Not sure why it would hurt so bad after pulling though. Bear with me if this is a stupid question, but could it be meniscal and the compression in my knee and on the meniscus after heavy deadlifts is what is hurting so bad?

I tried pulling in shoes last session and it was just as bad.

[Tom Campitelli]

If it is the LCL, then knees out to far may be part of the problem. Most people don't get pain from the compressive forces on the meniscus from deadlifting. If you run, the meniscus encounters higher impulse forces from the foot strike than a deadlift can provide. However, if your meniscus is dinged up, pain can certainly occur. Still, deadlifts and pulls from the floor are often the things that don't hurt. I don't have a good answer for you, unfortunately. When did your knees start hurting?

[Dlk93]

If it is the LCL, then knees out to far may be part of the problem. Most people don't get pain from the compressive forces on the meniscus from deadlifting. If you run, the meniscus encounters higher impulse forces from the foot strike than a deadlift can provide. However, if your meniscus is dinged up, pain can certainly occur. Still, deadlifts and pulls from the floor are often the things that don't hurt. I don't have a good answer for you, unfortunately. When did your knees start hurting?

So during my last session I brought the stance in a hair and stopped aggressively shoving out the knees and the pain was much less severe. It only bothered me during maybe my last set or two of triples. And I just lightened the load altogether for my Rows that day.

It's been a while since they started hurting but I can say for sure that it started hurting after LP and somewhere during doing the bridge (don't tell Jordan it might hurt his feelings). I also joined a new gym and it's got a mirror right in front of one of the squat racks that I'm on, so I feel like that has influenced me to go wider in my stance. Can't say for sure, but regardless, bringing the stance in by an inch or so, combined with toning it down on the knees out cue have reduced the pain a bit.

I deadlift heavy today and I'm not quite sure what to change up about my stance there to avoid that pain afterwards. Some people in the forum have said I could get my knees out into my elbows harder, but with everything else going on, that would seem to make the problem worse? Maybe fixing the squat stuff will translate over to the DL without making any changes to DL.